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It's no longer the era of industry.

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We're in a technological era,
fundamentally.

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The fascists, they have the resources.

4
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But we have imagination.

5
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We are making the tools
to take back our sovereignty.

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When we make a giant "fuck you" to the
system, it's breaking that stranglehold

7
00:01:01,250 --> 00:01:04,890
on the tools of power
that's used against us.

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The fascists always use the narrative of,

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"We are the white knights in shining armor
protecting against the threats.

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We come here and we move out
the dark with pure whiteness."

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That's a false narrative,

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because there is corruption
in those castles.

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The real base of power lies with us.

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We are the darkness.

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A trial, which potentially,
could have very far-reaching implications

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has just started in New York City.

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A jury will decide a case that could
impact the future of Internet privacy.

18
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Thousands of drugs came through
the black website called "Silk Road."

19
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The government overstepped their boundaries
to acquire the info they claim they have.

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This is not going away.

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This is gonna be the biggest takedown
of what is currently in existence.

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On January 13, 2015,

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a criminal trial began
for the accused leader of the Silk Road,

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a black market in an area of the Internet
known as "the deep web."

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The deep web is vast,

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thousands of times larger
than the visible Internet,

27
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what's called the "surface web."

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But the deep web is not a place.

29
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It simply accounts for all of
the unindexed content online...

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banking data, administrative
code for governments,

31
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corporations and universities.

32
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It's like looking under
the hood of the Internet.

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Over time, the deep web became
inhabited by people of all types

34
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who wanted to use
this terrain for privacy.

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This hidden area of the deep web
is called the "dark net"

36
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and it's accessible
with a software service called "Tor,"

37
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originally developed by the US military
and now open source and publicly funded.

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And while law enforcement and the media have
painted a picture that Tor and the dark net

39
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are nefarious tools for criminals,

40
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it's important to understand that
they are largely used for good

41
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by government agencies, journalists
and dissidents around the world.

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In the summer of 2011,

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an ad for the Silk Road
appeared on the dark net.

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The Silk Road was an underground
exchange for any type of goods,

45
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but mostly it was used for drugs.

46
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There have always been
drug markets online,

47
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but none with the scale, sophistication
and ease of use as the Silk Road.

48
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It would not remain underground for long.

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Hundreds of thousands of users
use the impossible-to-trace website

50
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which sells drugs,
forged documents and even hit men.

51
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It's called the Silk Road.

52
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Just look at some of the 13,000 items
offered through that underground site.

53
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Ultra clean cocaine, clean and real LSD,

54
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high grade MDMA, also known as "Molly"...

55
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all with fast and free shipping.

56
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It generated roughly $1.2 billion in sales

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with nearly 960,000 users,
both buyers and sellers,

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in the US and more than a dozen
other countries worldwide.

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YouTube videos like this one
with 15,000 views

60
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tell anyone how to download
an untraceable technology known as Tor

61
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that pulls data from thousands
of computers worldwide

62
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to create this wide open marketplace.

63
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This hidden Internet is underpinned
by a virtual currency called "Bitcoin."

64
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Bitcoins offer anonymized transactions,

65
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which can be almost impossible
for the police to trace.

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Heroin, opium, cannabis, ecstasy,
psychedelics, stimulants...

67
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opioids. And here they are.

68
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So, oxycodone, all of those.

69
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Codeine, black tar heroin.
You name it, they have it.

70
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They're all listed in the light of day.
It's unbelievable.

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The Silk Road's success was largely due
to an innovative combination

72
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of Tor and Bitcoin.

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Bitcoin is a technology that uses
cryptographic code to create digital currency.

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The sender transmits their Bitcoin code
through a ledger called the "block chain"

75
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to arrive at the recipient.

76
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Bitcoin is not perfectly anonymous.

77
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But if used carefully, it facilitates
online purchases without revealing identity.

78
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Bitcoin was an ideal currency
for the Silk Road,

79
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because it allows for anonymity

80
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and is outside the control
of banks and governments.

81
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I really became aware of the Silk Road
when Adrian Chen at Gawker,

82
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did his profile.

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I think in a way, that story, as much as
it documented the Silk Road,

84
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it created the Silk Road, too. I mean...
it drove so many people to the site.

85
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I think it probably was an order of magnitude
increase in users on the Silk Road.

86
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So from that point on,
I felt like I had missed the story

87
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and I wanted the next big story
on the Silk Road.

88
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But I was also just fascinated
with the community that was...

89
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you know, being created there.

90
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eBay doesn't have that kind
of user community.

91
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This was like a really tight-knit
movement of people.

92
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It was a fascinating thing
just to lurk around in.

93
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It's a certifiable,
one-stop shop for illegal drugs

94
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that represents the most brazen attempt

95
00:07:03,688 --> 00:07:06,528
to peddle drugs online
that we have ever seen.

96
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It's more brazen
than anything else by light-years.

97
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I mean, they had a really big,
you know, target on their back.

98
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And they even had been taunting,
to some extent, law enforcement

99
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and, you know, the powers that be
by doing this in the open.

100
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And that's actually part of what
this marketplace is all about.

101
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It's not so much about selling drugs
as much as it is to say...

102
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to make a political statement
of sorts, right?

103
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"This shouldn't be prohibited.
We're free to do what we want

104
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and we have the technology to do it.
So there."

105
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The news around the Silk Road
came almost entirely

106
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from law enforcement
and government officials

107
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with little insight from those
who were behind the market itself.

108
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So the core architects and vendors
of the Silk Road were sought out

109
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using encryption keys to verify their
identities and preserving their anonymity.

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This is the first time
they have spoken publicly.

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[The Silk Road forums were a better
community than I've ever seen in real life.]

112
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[There were many threads that had great
political and philosophical discussions.]

113
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[Sure there were illegal things going on,]

114
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[but this was a real community
of like minded people.]

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The Silk Road didn't appear
to have a single leader.

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There were the regular posts
from the systems administrator,

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but otherwise the service appeared to be
primarily community-run.

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Then on February 5, 2012,

119
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after a highly successful
first year of business,

120
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the Silk Road administrator
made an announcement...

121
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[I need an identity
separate from the site,]

122
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[and the enterprise
of which I am only a part.]

123
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[I need a name. Drum roll, please...]

124
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[My new name is... Dread Pirate Roberts.]

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- You're the Dread Pirate Roberts, admit it.
- With pride.

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The Dread Pirate Roberts was cribbed
from the mythical character

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from the novel and film "The Princess Bride,"
and the choice was no accident.

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In the original story by William Goldman,
the Dread Pirate Roberts

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was a nom de guerre handed down from
user to user and passed along eternally.

130
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The man I inherited it from was not
the real Dread Pirate Roberts either.

131
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The real Roberts has been retired 15 years
and I have been Roberts ever since.

132
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I shall retire and hand the name
over to someone else.

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This Dread Pirate Roberts, or DPR,

134
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would come to spearhead
the Silk Road forums

135
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and was generally assumed to be
the creator and owner of the site.

136
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The Dread Pirate Roberts
to me seemed to be

137
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kind of the most interesting figure
in that whole world.

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On the Silk Road forums, he was
constantly posting these manifestos

139
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and love letters to his users
and libertarian philosophical treaties.

140
00:09:30,247 --> 00:09:33,567
And he even had like this...
Dread Pirate Roberts book club

141
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where he hosted discussions
of Austrian economics

142
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and free market philosophy.

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At the same time, nobody knew who he was.

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He had never spoken to the press before.

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I approached him on the Silk Road
forum mid-2012 and...

146
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started kind of just like trying
to persuade him to talk,

147
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chipping away at him
and just bugging him constantly.

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The actual trigger, I think
that made him decide to talk

149
00:10:01,207 --> 00:10:04,647
was this competing
dark website called "Atlantis."

150
00:10:04,767 --> 00:10:09,367
They were really much more aggressive
in their marketing than the Silk Road.

151
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They put out this YouTube video

152
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advertising Atlantis as the new,
better dark web drug site.

153
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So when I went back
to the Dread Pirate Roberts

154
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and said, "You know,
I'm going to do this story.

155
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It can either be about Atlantis
or it can be about you,"

156
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I think he realized that,
you know, that...

157
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he was a savvy business guy who realized
he had to talk at that point.

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He did have a kind of political message
that he wanted to get out,

159
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and I could see that in what
he was posting on the forums.

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So I kind of played up to that
and I told him like,

161
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"I can be the vessel for you to talk about
what the Silk Road really represents,"

162
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and I think that that appealed to him.

163
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So it took eight months, but finally
he did agree to an interview.

164
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Of course, he didn't tell me
anything about himself...

165
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where he lives, you know,
his age, identity,

166
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anything that could be
remotely identifying.

167
00:11:02,686 --> 00:11:05,786
"I didn't start the Silk Road.
My predecessor did.

168
00:11:05,886 --> 00:11:09,686
"From what I understand it was
an original idea to combine Bitcoin and Tor

169
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"to create an anonymous market.
Everything was in place.

170
00:11:12,766 --> 00:11:14,406
He just put the pieces together.

171
00:11:14,526 --> 00:11:18,846
"The most I'm willing to reveal is that I am
not the first administrator of Silk Road."

172
00:11:18,966 --> 00:11:21,066
He was incredibly secretive, of course,

173
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about the inner workings
of the Silk Road and...

174
00:11:24,126 --> 00:11:26,106
you know, his own identity, of course.

175
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I mean he was hunted by every law
enforcement agency that you can imagine.

176
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"The management of Silk Road
is a collaborative effort.

177
00:11:35,846 --> 00:11:38,826
"It's not just me making sure
Silk Road runs smoothly.

178
00:11:38,926 --> 00:11:42,786
"More often than not, the best ideas
come from the community itself."

179
00:11:42,886 --> 00:11:45,926
But he did tell me some interesting things
about how he viewed himself and...

180
00:11:46,046 --> 00:11:48,566
and the way that the Silk Road works.

181
00:11:50,646 --> 00:11:54,346
"We don't allow the sale of anything that's
main purpose is to harm innocent people

182
00:11:54,446 --> 00:11:57,386
"or that it was necessary to harm
innocent people to bring to market.

183
00:11:57,486 --> 00:11:59,706
"For example,
anything stolen is forbidden.

184
00:11:59,806 --> 00:12:02,786
"Counterfeit money and coupons
which are used to defraud people.

185
00:12:02,886 --> 00:12:05,706
"Hit men aren't allowed
and neither is child pornography.

186
00:12:05,806 --> 00:12:08,906
No substance on Silk Road
falls under those guidelines."

187
00:12:09,006 --> 00:12:14,246
This went beyond just, you know,
like legalizing marijuana or even heroin.

188
00:12:14,366 --> 00:12:19,186
He wanted to see a new relationship
between individuals and the government,

189
00:12:19,286 --> 00:12:22,806
where the government was...
you know, basically hamstrung

190
00:12:22,926 --> 00:12:25,726
and couldn't control
what people bought and sold.

191
00:12:28,686 --> 00:12:33,066
"At its core, Silk Road is a way
to get around regulation from the state.

192
00:12:33,166 --> 00:12:37,206
"The state tries to control nearly every
aspect of our lives. Not just drug use.

193
00:12:37,486 --> 00:12:41,426
"Anywhere they do that, there's an
opportunity to live your life as you see fit,

194
00:12:41,526 --> 00:12:43,686
despite their efforts."

195
00:12:43,886 --> 00:12:47,486
I shouldn't generally say this kind of thing,
but I really liked the Dread Pirate Roberts

196
00:12:47,606 --> 00:12:50,266
that I interviewed.
I thought he was, you know...

197
00:12:50,366 --> 00:12:54,946
a really super-interesting guy
with a really coherent philosophy.

198
00:12:55,046 --> 00:12:59,206
He came across to me as this kind of
middle-aged, wise man figure, you know?

199
00:12:59,446 --> 00:13:03,486
But not everyone on Silk Road
believed in libertarian philosophy.

200
00:13:03,606 --> 00:13:08,185
Bringing an end to the drug war was
the agenda that truly united the community.

201
00:13:08,285 --> 00:13:11,545
[A huge reason why DPR
put the website up,]

202
00:13:11,645 --> 00:13:14,285
[and allowed the market to begin with,
and took the risk]

203
00:13:14,405 --> 00:13:18,025
[was because... needed to be
a violence reduction]

204
00:13:18,125 --> 00:13:21,445
[in purchasing drugs.
'Cause it's gonna happen]

205
00:13:21,565 --> 00:13:24,125
[and the reason it's gonna happen
is because of the War on Drugs.]

206
00:13:26,405 --> 00:13:30,105
[The violence isn't just from the people
buying and selling the drugs...]

207
00:13:30,205 --> 00:13:32,665
[The violence is from
the police departments...]

208
00:13:32,765 --> 00:13:35,965
[and the federal agents
prosecuting this war.]

209
00:13:36,085 --> 00:13:39,325
[And not to mention the horrendous violence
we commit overseas on people.]

210
00:13:39,685 --> 00:13:42,845
[We're the biggest bully on the planet
when it comes to drugs.]

211
00:13:43,165 --> 00:13:48,305
[The fact that more than 50%
of this country has said to the DEAD...]

212
00:13:48,405 --> 00:13:50,445
[we don't want you
prosecuting this war anymore.]

213
00:13:50,565 --> 00:13:52,425
[They need to demonize drugs.]

214
00:13:52,525 --> 00:13:57,445
[The War on Drugs is, you know,
all about fear, uncertainty and doubt.]

215
00:13:58,445 --> 00:14:02,025
I could see that the Silk Road
wasn't just another cyber-criminal scheme.

216
00:14:02,125 --> 00:14:05,925
This was a guy who saw himself
as the leader of a movement.

217
00:14:06,045 --> 00:14:08,665
"One thing I've learned playing
Dread Pirate Roberts

218
00:14:08,765 --> 00:14:12,665
is that your actions are sure
to please some and infuriate others.

219
00:14:12,765 --> 00:14:16,025
"But we can't stay silent forever.
We have an important message.

220
00:14:16,125 --> 00:14:18,585
"And the time is ripe
for the world to hear it.

221
00:14:18,685 --> 00:14:22,405
"What we're doing isn't about
scoring drugs or sticking it to the man.

222
00:14:22,525 --> 00:14:26,225
"It's about standing up for our rights
as human beings and refusing to submit

223
00:14:26,325 --> 00:14:27,905
"when we've done no wrong.

224
00:14:28,005 --> 00:14:30,505
"Silk Road is a vehicle for that message.

225
00:14:30,605 --> 00:14:33,125
All else is secondary."

226
00:14:33,685 --> 00:14:36,925
The Silk Road functioned because
the Dread Pirate Roberts was trusted.

227
00:14:37,045 --> 00:14:41,185
At any point, he could've shut down the Silk
Road and run away with everyone's Bitcoins.

228
00:14:41,285 --> 00:14:44,425
We've seen that happen
with a bunch of other dark web businesses.

229
00:14:44,525 --> 00:14:47,525
But he didn't, and I think
people believed that he wouldn't

230
00:14:47,645 --> 00:14:51,905
because they felt that he was
a true believer in this kind of radically

231
00:14:52,005 --> 00:14:56,425
libertarian, crypto-anarchic
philosophy that, you know,

232
00:14:56,525 --> 00:14:59,205
goes back to the cypherpunks of the 1990s.

233
00:15:00,245 --> 00:15:04,365
Twenty-five years ago, in the Bay Area,
a burgeoning group of mathematicians,

234
00:15:04,485 --> 00:15:08,285
crypto-anarchists and hackers
began to meet in each other's homes.

235
00:15:08,605 --> 00:15:12,905
This tight-knit group came to be
casually known as the "cypherpunks."

236
00:15:13,005 --> 00:15:15,565
These original members
were not socially motivated,

237
00:15:15,725 --> 00:15:19,065
but more concerned with the hard math
of cryptographic technology

238
00:15:19,165 --> 00:15:23,645
and the broader philosophy of anonymity,
individual liberty and privacy.

239
00:15:23,765 --> 00:15:27,065
The government has this clear policy
of access to all plain text,

240
00:15:27,165 --> 00:15:29,145
meaning whatever you're saying,
they want access to.

241
00:15:29,245 --> 00:15:31,425
If it's stored on your hard disk,
they want access to it.

242
00:15:31,525 --> 00:15:33,565
If it so goes over the wire,
they want access to it.

243
00:15:33,685 --> 00:15:37,165
If you are proxying speech for someone
else, they wanna know who it is.

244
00:15:37,645 --> 00:15:40,325
The cypherpunks were instrumental
in the growing movement

245
00:15:40,445 --> 00:15:43,145
towards privacy and anonymity online.

246
00:15:43,245 --> 00:15:47,305
And they would pioneer the way
into the hidden corners of the Internet.

247
00:15:47,405 --> 00:15:49,925
Maybe the big turning point
for the cypherpunks,

248
00:15:50,045 --> 00:15:52,744
I think, was WikiLeaks and Julian Assange

249
00:15:52,844 --> 00:15:56,024
and Jacob Appelbaum's idea
of what it means to be a cypherpunk.

250
00:15:56,124 --> 00:15:58,104
You cannot trust a government

251
00:15:58,204 --> 00:16:00,904
to implement the policies
that it says that it's implementing.

252
00:16:01,004 --> 00:16:04,444
And so we must provide
the underlying tools,

253
00:16:04,564 --> 00:16:07,304
secret cryptographic codes
that the government couldn't spy on

254
00:16:07,404 --> 00:16:10,784
to everyone as a sort of use of force.

255
00:16:10,884 --> 00:16:16,164
And a government no matter how hard
it tries, if the cyphers are good,

256
00:16:16,284 --> 00:16:19,004
cannot break into
your communications directly.

257
00:16:19,124 --> 00:16:21,544
Force of authority
is derived from violence.

258
00:16:21,644 --> 00:16:24,464
One must acknowledge with cryptography,
no amount of violence

259
00:16:24,564 --> 00:16:26,324
- will ever solve a math problem.
- Exactly.

260
00:16:26,444 --> 00:16:29,104
And this is the important key.
It doesn't mean you can't be tortured.

261
00:16:29,204 --> 00:16:32,064
It doesn't mean they can't try to bug
your house or subvert it in some way,

262
00:16:32,164 --> 00:16:34,784
but it means if they find an encrypted
message it doesn't matter if they have

263
00:16:34,884 --> 00:16:37,224
the force of the authority
behind everything that they do.

264
00:16:37,324 --> 00:16:38,864
They cannot solve that math problem.

265
00:16:38,964 --> 00:16:42,524
This movement is not about
the destruction of law.

266
00:16:42,644 --> 00:16:46,464
This movement is not about
the destruction of law.

267
00:16:46,564 --> 00:16:49,244
It is about the construction of law.

268
00:16:49,364 --> 00:16:53,404
These are guys who want to create
encryption tools that everybody can use.

269
00:16:53,524 --> 00:16:54,904
It's not just for the elite.

270
00:16:55,004 --> 00:16:58,084
It's trying to shift the way
that the Internet works

271
00:16:58,204 --> 00:17:01,884
to provide secrecy and anonymity
and privacy to everyone...

272
00:17:02,004 --> 00:17:05,284
you know, so like...
it's a much more populist movement.

273
00:17:05,684 --> 00:17:10,244
There is a community of people
in the security and cryptography space

274
00:17:10,364 --> 00:17:14,364
who want to live in a world where
the government cannot record their emails,

275
00:17:14,484 --> 00:17:18,484
cannot listen to their telephone calls,
cannot see who they're spending time with.

276
00:17:18,604 --> 00:17:20,584
And they're trying to build tools.

277
00:17:20,684 --> 00:17:23,144
They're trying to build
protocols and services

278
00:17:23,244 --> 00:17:27,244
that can facilitate that kind of anonymous
and private exchange of information.

279
00:17:27,364 --> 00:17:31,164
I actually think this all comes down
to wanting to live a free life.

280
00:17:31,284 --> 00:17:34,944
And the recognition which
really predates all technology,

281
00:17:35,044 --> 00:17:37,984
that an observed life
is not a completely free life,

282
00:17:38,084 --> 00:17:41,464
that a zone of privacy
is just a core human value.

283
00:17:41,564 --> 00:17:46,284
And the technology
to me is just an incarnation

284
00:17:46,524 --> 00:17:48,644
of those basic human values.

285
00:17:48,764 --> 00:17:51,744
And I think that the people
who are trying to build

286
00:17:51,844 --> 00:17:54,564
currencies that are free of tracking
and government control

287
00:17:54,684 --> 00:17:57,464
and technologies that let you
have a private conversation

288
00:17:57,564 --> 00:18:01,824
and those kinds of things
are just people who are seeing

289
00:18:01,924 --> 00:18:06,904
that the technology can both enable
and disable that space.

290
00:18:07,004 --> 00:18:09,844
There are more cypherpunks
than ever before.

291
00:18:10,204 --> 00:18:14,464
They want to entirely cripple
the government's ability to enforce law.

292
00:18:14,564 --> 00:18:20,104
They want cryptography to make the rules
instead of law enforcement.

293
00:18:20,204 --> 00:18:24,444
Cody Wilson is a crypto-anarchist
best known for developing the Liberator,

294
00:18:24,564 --> 00:18:29,544
a 3D printable gun that was downloaded
100,000 times in two days.

295
00:18:29,644 --> 00:18:32,584
When a group of baby boomers are told,
okay now 3D printers will print guns,

296
00:18:32,684 --> 00:18:36,684
they can do nothing but say, "Well, it's been
nice living in the world I used to know."

297
00:18:36,804 --> 00:18:40,803
We want to question the very foundation,
evacuate the very foundation

298
00:18:40,923 --> 00:18:46,283
that this order, moral,
ethical, political, is founded on.

299
00:18:47,003 --> 00:18:50,523
To see beyond good and evil
and to allow something else to happen.

300
00:18:50,923 --> 00:18:53,383
This is where the figure of DPR
is so interesting to me.

301
00:18:53,483 --> 00:18:56,423
Like is he a liberal?
Like is he a Misesian like he says he is?

302
00:18:56,523 --> 00:18:58,503
He believes in libertarian
market principles,

303
00:18:58,603 --> 00:19:01,503
and you know man against the state
and all these these principles of freedom

304
00:19:01,603 --> 00:19:04,543
and axioms of... or is he someone else?

305
00:19:04,643 --> 00:19:08,023
Like who I hope he is or someone
like I would try to hope to be,

306
00:19:08,123 --> 00:19:10,743
who's just looking for a way, a mechanism,

307
00:19:10,843 --> 00:19:13,703
to help peek beyond
good and evil a little bit. And...

308
00:19:13,803 --> 00:19:18,503
is he more enthusiastic about what he's...
what he's allowed to be opened up,

309
00:19:18,603 --> 00:19:20,423
the doors he's opening.

310
00:19:20,523 --> 00:19:23,703
Of course, there will be
a dark side to the dark web.

311
00:19:23,803 --> 00:19:27,423
And if we want to enable this...
this true crypto-anarchic future,

312
00:19:27,523 --> 00:19:30,783
anyone who's working on that, I think,
has to reckon with the fact that...

313
00:19:30,883 --> 00:19:33,863
they're going to be enabling
really nasty things

314
00:19:33,963 --> 00:19:38,523
along with this kind of information freedom
revolution that they're taking part in.

315
00:19:39,083 --> 00:19:42,583
By August 2012, business was booming.

316
00:19:42,683 --> 00:19:47,323
The Silk Road had become a thriving,
anonymous and unregulated black market.

317
00:19:47,443 --> 00:19:51,323
The Internet being used in this way,
posed a major threat to the government,

318
00:19:51,443 --> 00:19:53,483
greater perhaps than selling drugs.

319
00:19:53,603 --> 00:19:56,523
Even as a law enforcement officer,
I still wouldn't know

320
00:19:56,643 --> 00:20:00,983
where to go and buy crack
on the streets or buy heroin,

321
00:20:01,083 --> 00:20:03,143
but I do know how
to go online and find it.

322
00:20:03,243 --> 00:20:06,083
It's downloading some software
and the next thing you know you're there

323
00:20:06,203 --> 00:20:09,923
and you can purchase a service
or drugs very easily.

324
00:20:10,723 --> 00:20:14,463
Since when does a teenager become
obsessed with the daily mail delivery?

325
00:20:14,563 --> 00:20:17,983
Fidgeting and pacing made
this Fisher's mom suspicious.

326
00:20:18,083 --> 00:20:22,823
So when her family's mail arrived,
she grabbed it and found a cartoon DVD box

327
00:20:22,923 --> 00:20:27,363
addressed to her son with something extra,
a package of white crystals.

328
00:20:27,483 --> 00:20:31,803
So she confronted her 14-year-old
and both their lives changed forever.

329
00:20:32,123 --> 00:20:34,823
I don't think anybody really cared
in law enforcement

330
00:20:34,923 --> 00:20:37,543
until Senator Schumer went, "Oh, my God,
we've gotta do something about this."

331
00:20:37,643 --> 00:20:40,323
Today I'm calling on the DEA
and the Department of Justice

332
00:20:40,443 --> 00:20:44,003
to immediately shut this site down
before more damage is done.

333
00:20:44,123 --> 00:20:46,923
Because if you think about what
law enforcement at the federal level

334
00:20:47,043 --> 00:20:49,143
has to do to even start a case,

335
00:20:49,243 --> 00:20:52,643
I don't think this case would've been started
if it wasn't for some political impetus

336
00:20:52,763 --> 00:20:55,643
by, you know, a senator saying,
"We need to look into this."

337
00:20:55,763 --> 00:21:00,263
The FBI today shut down what it's calling
the most sophisticated Internet site

338
00:21:00,363 --> 00:21:04,843
in the business of selling hard drugs,
including heroin, cocaine and LSD.

339
00:21:05,283 --> 00:21:08,703
Anyone trying to log on to the website
today found this notice:

340
00:21:08,803 --> 00:21:10,363
"Shut down by the FBI."

341
00:21:10,483 --> 00:21:13,223
It was a sophisticated
electronic smokescreen

342
00:21:13,323 --> 00:21:16,023
and it took federal agents
almost two years.

343
00:21:16,123 --> 00:21:19,483
They were able to infiltrate the site,
but they made some of these purchases

344
00:21:19,603 --> 00:21:21,723
themselves using undercover identities.

345
00:21:21,843 --> 00:21:26,822
The secretive Dread Pirate Roberts was
arrested in the most unlikely of places...

346
00:21:26,922 --> 00:21:30,242
this local public library
in this San Francisco neighborhood.

347
00:21:30,362 --> 00:21:33,942
The FBI seized $3.6 million

348
00:21:34,042 --> 00:21:38,402
of Bitcoin's biggest haul
in its five-year history.

349
00:21:51,722 --> 00:21:54,782
When the criminal complaint
first appeared in October,

350
00:21:54,882 --> 00:21:58,082
it describes this 29-year-old
kid named Ross Ulbricht.

351
00:22:00,322 --> 00:22:04,542
Not only do they say that he has run this
billion-dollar plus black market conspiracy

352
00:22:04,642 --> 00:22:07,542
and they accuse him of drug trafficking
and money laundering

353
00:22:07,642 --> 00:22:09,922
and somehow computer
hacking charges, as well,

354
00:22:10,042 --> 00:22:13,882
which is something that I had never
associated with the Silk Road.

355
00:22:14,522 --> 00:22:18,402
But then also in this criminal
complaint there is outlined

356
00:22:18,522 --> 00:22:20,822
his plot to pay for the murders

357
00:22:20,922 --> 00:22:24,182
of a potential informant
and a blackmailer.

358
00:22:24,282 --> 00:22:26,522
It seems at least one Silk Road user

359
00:22:26,642 --> 00:22:29,542
threatened to reveal the identities
of thousands of others.

360
00:22:29,642 --> 00:22:34,882
So investigators say Ulbricht tried to
execute a Murder-For-Hire on that user,

361
00:22:35,002 --> 00:22:39,802
offering $150,000
to a would-be hit man because...

362
00:22:39,922 --> 00:22:42,662
"This kind of behavior
is unforgivable to me.

363
00:22:42,762 --> 00:22:47,042
Especially here on Silk Road,
anonymity is sacrosant.

364
00:22:47,162 --> 00:22:49,022
It threw me for a loop. It was really not

365
00:22:49,122 --> 00:22:51,582
the Dread Pirate Roberts
that I had ever imagined.

366
00:22:51,682 --> 00:22:54,442
This connection between Ross Ulbricht,

367
00:22:54,562 --> 00:22:57,822
who plenty of evidence suggests
that he was involved in the Silk Road.

368
00:22:57,922 --> 00:23:01,122
They, after all, seized his laptop
while he was logged in to the Silk Road.

369
00:23:01,242 --> 00:23:02,682
He was caught red-handed.

370
00:23:02,802 --> 00:23:05,602
But these two personalities,
these two personas,

371
00:23:05,722 --> 00:23:08,582
do seem to be almost schizophrenic.

372
00:23:08,682 --> 00:23:12,022
It's so difficult to imagine
that they are the same person.

373
00:23:12,122 --> 00:23:16,322
And so the FBI's whole case
is based on the idea if they can show

374
00:23:16,442 --> 00:23:18,362
that Dread Pirate Roberts
is Ross Ulbricht?

375
00:23:18,482 --> 00:23:20,582
Right. That's the most
important part, right?

376
00:23:20,682 --> 00:23:23,782
Because he was trying to hide
his identity on the site as well.

377
00:23:23,882 --> 00:23:26,942
So the first thing they're gonna
have to do is definitively link him

378
00:23:27,042 --> 00:23:29,522
as the person who runs the site.

379
00:23:34,002 --> 00:23:36,542
Oh, man, it was like
it was yesterday, actually.

380
00:23:36,642 --> 00:23:41,242
I was on my computer and...
I was on Facebook.

381
00:23:41,362 --> 00:23:45,882
And there's this guy that I know
and he's very into like Bitcoin

382
00:23:46,002 --> 00:23:47,962
and cryptocurrencies and stuff like that.

383
00:23:48,082 --> 00:23:52,382
He posted this article and it says,
"Ross Ulbricht Arrested."

384
00:23:52,482 --> 00:23:55,702
And I pull up Lyn's...
G-chat and I'm like,

385
00:23:55,802 --> 00:23:59,742
"What is going on? Like why is..."
And I'm looking at Ross' page...

386
00:23:59,842 --> 00:24:03,222
Picture, you know, about being arrested.
What is this?

387
00:24:03,322 --> 00:24:06,262
She says, "We don't even know.
We're leaving Costa Rica right now."

388
00:24:06,362 --> 00:24:09,621
I mean, they were on their way,
but it blew my mind.

389
00:24:09,721 --> 00:24:11,921
I mean totally blew my mind.

390
00:24:15,761 --> 00:24:19,141
Ross William Ulbricht grew up
in a suburb of Austin,

391
00:24:19,241 --> 00:24:23,381
the only son of Kirk and Lyn
with an older sister named Callie.

392
00:24:23,481 --> 00:24:26,581
It's a loving, tight-knit,
middle-class family.

393
00:24:26,681 --> 00:24:29,241
The Ulbrichts earn their income
from properties they built

394
00:24:29,361 --> 00:24:32,321
and rent on the Costa Rican coast.

395
00:24:32,441 --> 00:24:36,161
Ross was an avid outdoorsman,
an Eagle Scout like his father,

396
00:24:36,281 --> 00:24:39,041
and displayed an early aptitude for math.

397
00:24:39,321 --> 00:24:42,881
Ross earned a full scholarship
to the University of Texas at Dallas

398
00:24:43,001 --> 00:24:44,821
studying Physics.

399
00:24:44,921 --> 00:24:49,441
He graduated in 2006 and then won
another full scholarship to Penn State

400
00:24:49,641 --> 00:24:53,401
to pursue a Masters
in Material Science and Engineering.

401
00:24:53,521 --> 00:24:57,401
It was at Penn State that Ross began
a deep interest in libertarianism,

402
00:24:57,521 --> 00:25:02,081
particularly the work of Ludwig Von Mises
and the Austrian School of Economics.

403
00:25:02,201 --> 00:25:05,341
Yet by 2009, having completed his Masters,

404
00:25:05,441 --> 00:25:07,721
Ross seemed to be having
a change of life plan

405
00:25:07,841 --> 00:25:12,321
telling his mother he no longer had an
interest in pursuing a career in science

406
00:25:12,441 --> 00:25:15,221
and instead wanted to become
an entrepreneur.

407
00:25:15,321 --> 00:25:19,781
Ross moved back to Austin and opened
his own used book company, Good Wagon,

408
00:25:19,881 --> 00:25:23,221
donating a portion of the proceeds
to an inner city youth program

409
00:25:23,321 --> 00:25:25,561
and to a prison literacy project.

410
00:25:25,721 --> 00:25:29,981
I remember him saying, when we had coffee,
the last time we saw each other,

411
00:25:30,081 --> 00:25:34,681
I remember him saying that he wished
he had joined a fraternity in college.

412
00:25:34,801 --> 00:25:36,641
And I remember saying,
"Well, that's surprising."

413
00:25:36,761 --> 00:25:40,161
You know, I didn't really understand
that perspective,

414
00:25:40,281 --> 00:25:42,581
and I just remember him thinking,

415
00:25:42,681 --> 00:25:46,301
well, he focused a lot
on his studies in school

416
00:25:46,401 --> 00:25:49,581
and maybe didn't create the social network

417
00:25:49,681 --> 00:25:52,981
that he was looking for...
in... in school.

418
00:25:53,081 --> 00:25:58,561
But as far as where we saw each other
going or where we saw ourselves going...

419
00:25:59,441 --> 00:26:03,381
I think we both had a strong desire

420
00:26:03,481 --> 00:26:06,041
to be in control of our destiny.

421
00:26:06,161 --> 00:26:09,941
You know, again like when he started
the book company, totally natural.

422
00:26:10,041 --> 00:26:13,201
Not even something that I would've
questioned, where there are a lot of people

423
00:26:13,321 --> 00:26:17,201
that would never start their own business.
But for Ross, sure, you know, why not?

424
00:26:17,401 --> 00:26:21,021
But the business floundered
and Ross eventually shut it down.

425
00:26:21,121 --> 00:26:24,101
And if a post on his Linkedln page
was any indication,

426
00:26:24,201 --> 00:26:28,381
Ross had experienced a kind of epiphany
on the next way forward.

427
00:26:28,481 --> 00:26:31,361
Ulbricht wrote,
"Now my goals have shifted.

428
00:26:31,481 --> 00:26:35,001
"I want to use economic theory as a means
to abolish the use of coercion

429
00:26:35,121 --> 00:26:37,301
"and aggression amongst mankind.

430
00:26:37,401 --> 00:26:40,341
"To that end, I am creating
an economic simulation

431
00:26:40,441 --> 00:26:42,681
"to give people a first-hand experience

432
00:26:42,801 --> 00:26:46,601
"of what it would be like to live in a world
without the systemic use of force."

433
00:26:47,041 --> 00:26:51,181
From this moment, in late 2010,
Ross became something of a free spirit,

434
00:26:51,281 --> 00:26:53,541
eventually leaving
his parents' home in Austin

435
00:26:53,641 --> 00:26:56,220
to live with his sister Callie
in Sydney, Australia

436
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:58,460
and then returning briefly to Austin.

437
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,020
Throughout this period,
as far as his family knew,

438
00:27:01,120 --> 00:27:05,940
Ross' means of employment was working
on freelance projects in computer finance.

439
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:09,140
I am Rene Pinnell, age 29.

440
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,860
Today is December 6, 2012

441
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:15,700
and we are in the Jewish
Contemporary Art Museum...

442
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:21,160
and relationship to partner
is best friend.

443
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:25,200
So, Ross, how did you come
to live in San Francisco?

444
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,860
You twisted my arm until I said,

445
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,480
"Fine, I'll come."

446
00:27:31,880 --> 00:27:34,500
I get a phone call from Rene,
"Ross, call me up.

447
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,140
I've got an opportunity for you."
I'm like, "Okay."

448
00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:41,380
He's like, "Yeah, I'm doing
a startup here in San Francisco.

449
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:42,740
I want you to be a part of it."

450
00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,260
The more I thought about it,
and the more he...

451
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:48,120
laid out the pros and cons...

452
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,240
the more it all just seemed like cosmic
and the right thing to do.

453
00:27:53,360 --> 00:27:55,780
So... yeah.

454
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,920
I bought my ticket and two weeks later
I showed up at his doorstep.

455
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:03,900
As Ross Ulbricht was making his way
from Australia to Austin,

456
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,580
and eventually to San Francisco,

457
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,380
the Silk Road was online
and growing steadily.

458
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,320
So naturally it sparked the attention
of federal law enforcement

459
00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:15,960
and specifically the wing of the DHS
called Homeland Security Investigations,

460
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,540
housed in the old Customs House
in Baltimore, Maryland.

461
00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:24,600
You have postal inspectors in Seattle
and Customs and Border Protection...

462
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:28,140
intercepting mail shipments coming
from overseas full of drugs,

463
00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,340
full of... full of currency.

464
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:34,480
And one thing that happens is
they all lead back to the Silk Road.

465
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,840
And you have a number
of independent investigations

466
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,080
sort of cropping up
around the same timeframe

467
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,800
following different leads,
but all leading back to the same place.

468
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,720
At the same time, the New York
Cyber-Crime Division of the FBI

469
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:53,560
began their own investigation,
headed by Agent Chris Tarbell.

470
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:56,660
There were people essentially online 24/7

471
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,920
as part of the team
that was monitoring, gathering,

472
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,920
even just the little bits of evidence.

473
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:03,800
Informants were activated.

474
00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,320
The site was crawling with law enforcement
posing as vendors and buyers

475
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,720
from the very beginning
of Silk Road's existence.

476
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:16,880
In early 2012, HSI partnered with Tarbell's
FBI investigators as well as the DEA

477
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:20,180
to mount an undercover operation called
"Marco Polo"

478
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:24,100
with the intention of penetrating
the inner sanctum of the Silk Road.

479
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,600
[I had a package seized from China in
January 2012 and thought nothing of it.]

480
00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,900
[I kept business as usual,
which was a stupid move.]

481
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:34,260
[Fast forward to June 28th, 2012]

482
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:39,040
[I was raided by ATF, DEA,
Secret Service, local police department]

483
00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:41,039
[and even a postal inspector.]

484
00:29:41,159 --> 00:29:42,299
[I was not detained.]

485
00:29:42,399 --> 00:29:47,239
[Rather, I was held in a van outside
for what they call "investigative detention."]

486
00:29:47,359 --> 00:29:49,879
[They kept me out of jail.
I was never booked or charged]

487
00:29:49,999 --> 00:29:53,839
[because my seized computers were more
useful to them if I was not behind bars.]

488
00:29:53,959 --> 00:29:56,399
[I'm also assuming they did this
with a number of Silk Road vendors]

489
00:29:56,519 --> 00:29:59,339
[to get a sort of organized crime
ring of their own.]

490
00:29:59,439 --> 00:30:01,179
The operation gained traction

491
00:30:01,279 --> 00:30:04,139
when an undercover agent
using the vendor name of "nob"

492
00:30:04,239 --> 00:30:08,819
was allegedly able to establish direct
communication with the Dread Pirate Roberts,

493
00:30:08,919 --> 00:30:11,299
which would lead
to a shocking turn of events.

494
00:30:11,399 --> 00:30:16,439
Nob complained to DPR about the small-fry
nature of most deals on the Silk Road.

495
00:30:16,559 --> 00:30:20,319
"It really isn't worth it
to do below 10 kilos," the agent wrote.

496
00:30:20,439 --> 00:30:22,979
DPR offered to help find a buyer for nob

497
00:30:23,079 --> 00:30:27,259
and allegedly turned to one of his most
trusted partners known only as "chronicpain"

498
00:30:27,359 --> 00:30:28,899
to put the deal together.

499
00:30:28,999 --> 00:30:31,319
Chronicpain had been one
of the core administrators

500
00:30:31,439 --> 00:30:32,919
of the Silk Road from the beginning,

501
00:30:33,039 --> 00:30:36,339
a frequent contributor to the forums
who shared the Silk Road vision

502
00:30:36,439 --> 00:30:40,679
for reducing harm in the drug trade,
but these halcyon days were about to end.

503
00:30:41,159 --> 00:30:43,299
In order to facilitate this drug deal,

504
00:30:43,399 --> 00:30:46,739
chronicpain gave the informant
his home address.

505
00:30:46,839 --> 00:30:51,059
Federal agents immediately apprehended
chronicpain at his Salt Lake City home

506
00:30:51,159 --> 00:30:54,959
and were surprised to discover
that this 47-year-old family man

507
00:30:55,079 --> 00:30:58,659
named Curtis Clark Green
was a dark net criminal.

508
00:30:58,759 --> 00:31:00,319
At some point they're going
to catch one of those people.

509
00:31:00,439 --> 00:31:02,079
And what do you do in a typical drug case?

510
00:31:02,199 --> 00:31:04,599
You roll that person over
as a cooperating witness.

511
00:31:04,719 --> 00:31:07,779
And in this case, one of them
they got really lucky

512
00:31:07,879 --> 00:31:09,939
and he was an administrator on the system.

513
00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:14,259
Green had access to other Silk Road
users' accounts and financial records,

514
00:31:14,359 --> 00:31:16,099
including Dread Pirate Roberts.

515
00:31:16,199 --> 00:31:20,659
"I have to assume he will sing,"
DPR wrote to nob, the undercover agent.

516
00:31:20,759 --> 00:31:24,439
"I'd like him beat up."
Then, the next day, he allegedly wrote...

517
00:31:24,559 --> 00:31:27,799
"Can you change the order
to execute rather than torture?"

518
00:31:27,919 --> 00:31:32,739
A murder was staged. And a photograph
of Green's bloody body was sent to DPR,

519
00:31:32,839 --> 00:31:35,219
who paid for the hit in Bitcoin.

520
00:31:35,319 --> 00:31:37,919
There would be five more alleged
Murders-For-Hire,

521
00:31:38,039 --> 00:31:41,299
including ordered hits against
a blackmailer, a scammer

522
00:31:41,399 --> 00:31:44,319
and an apparent contract
with the Hells Angels.

523
00:31:44,439 --> 00:31:47,799
The names of two of these victims
were found to be fictitious.

524
00:31:47,919 --> 00:31:51,619
And authorities have no evidence
of any murders being carried out.

525
00:31:51,719 --> 00:31:54,739
The alleged attempted murder
of Curtis Green allowed the authorities

526
00:31:54,839 --> 00:31:57,779
to obtain an indictment
against Dread Pirate Roberts,

527
00:31:57,879 --> 00:32:02,579
charging him with drug offenses,
attempted witness murder and Murder-For-Hire.

528
00:32:02,679 --> 00:32:06,999
Of course, they still had no idea
who the Dread Pirate Roberts actually was.

529
00:32:07,119 --> 00:32:09,919
So the embedded agents
continued to communicate with DPR,

530
00:32:10,039 --> 00:32:12,679
and DPR continued to respond.

531
00:32:14,639 --> 00:32:19,639
In June of 2013, Ross moved into an
apartment that he found on Craigslist.

532
00:32:19,759 --> 00:32:24,579
Allegedly, he did not give his roommates his
real name and was known as Joshua Terrey.

533
00:32:24,679 --> 00:32:29,478
At the same time, IRS agent Gary Alford
was investigating the Silk Road

534
00:32:29,598 --> 00:32:33,058
and through a simple Google search
was able to locate an early email

535
00:32:33,158 --> 00:32:37,138
on the open Internet discussing
the launch of the Silk Road marketplace

536
00:32:37,238 --> 00:32:41,778
and connect that email to an account
owned by Ross Ulbricht.

537
00:32:41,878 --> 00:32:44,718
One month later, postal inspectors
at the Canadian border

538
00:32:44,838 --> 00:32:48,238
seized a package of fake IDs
with Ross' image

539
00:32:48,358 --> 00:32:50,878
that were en route to his home address.

540
00:32:52,158 --> 00:32:56,438
Ross was visited at his apartment
by several DHS agents.

541
00:32:56,558 --> 00:32:59,418
The agents handed Ross
a false California driver's license

542
00:32:59,518 --> 00:33:01,858
that bore his picture,
but a different name.

543
00:33:01,958 --> 00:33:05,278
Ulbricht denied ownership
or knowledge of the fake IDs,

544
00:33:05,398 --> 00:33:07,998
and the agents simply left.

545
00:33:08,758 --> 00:33:11,938
If you suspect somebody
may be involved in a...

546
00:33:12,038 --> 00:33:13,778
large-scale criminal enterprise,

547
00:33:13,878 --> 00:33:16,338
going and knocking on a door
with some... you know,

548
00:33:16,438 --> 00:33:19,838
some evidence of fake IDs is important...

549
00:33:19,958 --> 00:33:22,778
because you can see the guy face-to-face.

550
00:33:22,878 --> 00:33:25,818
You may get some useful information
out of an interview.

551
00:33:25,918 --> 00:33:28,318
You may or may not want to take him
into custody on the spot.

552
00:33:28,438 --> 00:33:31,698
Let's sit back and let's...
let's really go after this

553
00:33:31,798 --> 00:33:35,618
in a you know, much more
global way, if you will,

554
00:33:35,718 --> 00:33:38,898
because there's a lot more
here than just one count of,

555
00:33:38,998 --> 00:33:40,658
you know, fake IDs.

556
00:33:40,758 --> 00:33:42,278
The next big break in the case

557
00:33:42,398 --> 00:33:46,198
would be achieved by FBI agent Tarbell
and his cyber-crime team,

558
00:33:46,318 --> 00:33:50,358
who had somehow located the Silk Road
servers in Germany and Iceland.

559
00:33:50,478 --> 00:33:53,978
How these hidden servers were found
has been a matter of controversy,

560
00:33:54,078 --> 00:33:57,538
but the FBI had their own copy
of the Silk Road server,

561
00:33:57,638 --> 00:34:01,498
and now they hoped to finally unmask
the Dread Pirate Roberts.

562
00:34:01,598 --> 00:34:04,038
[I decided there was a flaw
in this setup somewhere,]

563
00:34:04,158 --> 00:34:06,198
[I couldn't quite put my finger on it.]

564
00:34:06,318 --> 00:34:09,418
[But there was a flaw and I called up
my partner and said:]

565
00:34:09,518 --> 00:34:11,538
["There's a flaw, we've got
a limited amount of time,]

566
00:34:11,638 --> 00:34:13,758
[We need to make our money and get out.]

567
00:34:14,118 --> 00:34:17,958
Over the course of a year,
a Chicago-based agent from the DHS

568
00:34:18,078 --> 00:34:21,378
named Jared Der-Yeghiayan
had been embedded in the Silk Road,

569
00:34:21,478 --> 00:34:25,238
now posing as a high-ranking
moderator named "cirrus."

570
00:34:25,358 --> 00:34:28,598
With both the evidence connecting Ross
to the launch of the Silk Road

571
00:34:28,718 --> 00:34:34,078
and the incident with the fake IDs,
Ross became one of the primary suspects.

572
00:34:34,398 --> 00:34:38,858
On October 1st in a coordinated effort
between Der-Yeghiayan from the DHS

573
00:34:38,958 --> 00:34:42,818
and Tarbell's FBI squad,
a sting operation was launched.

574
00:34:42,918 --> 00:34:47,418
According to Der-Yeghiayan's testimony,
he staked out Ross' new residence.

575
00:34:47,518 --> 00:34:49,538
And using his pseudonym of cirrus,

576
00:34:49,638 --> 00:34:53,758
Der-Yeghiayan initiated a conversation
on the Silk Road with DPR.

577
00:34:53,878 --> 00:34:56,918
Moments later,
Ross went to the Glen Park Library,

578
00:34:57,038 --> 00:34:58,898
apparently to use their Wi-Fi.

579
00:34:58,998 --> 00:35:02,978
And when Der-Yeghiayan saw that DPR
was logged back into the Silk Road,

580
00:35:03,078 --> 00:35:06,298
he gave the order for Tarbell
and his squad to move in.

581
00:35:06,398 --> 00:35:09,118
It's an excitement that you
couldn't even buy off Silk Road.

582
00:35:09,238 --> 00:35:11,678
All the drugs you could buy
on the site, you...

583
00:35:11,798 --> 00:35:15,357
It's not the same excitement as catching
the guy. It's an adrenaline rush.

584
00:35:15,837 --> 00:35:18,817
Ross was apprehended
before he could encrypt his laptop.

585
00:35:18,917 --> 00:35:21,817
He was allegedly logged into
a Silk Road administration panel

586
00:35:21,917 --> 00:35:24,897
for customers needing DPR's attention.

587
00:35:24,997 --> 00:35:29,277
He was a dream for drug users,
because he was very technically adept

588
00:35:29,397 --> 00:35:34,237
and he was able to hide both
the website that he put together

589
00:35:34,357 --> 00:35:37,817
and the actual sales of illegal drugs

590
00:35:37,917 --> 00:35:41,677
that the drug sellers
would... make on his website.

591
00:35:41,957 --> 00:35:45,077
The Silk Road was seized and shut down,
and charges were announced

592
00:35:45,197 --> 00:35:48,397
against a number of core partners
and vendors from the site.

593
00:35:48,757 --> 00:35:51,517
Ross was held for over a month
in a jail in Oakland,

594
00:35:51,637 --> 00:35:53,557
awaiting extradition to New York.

595
00:35:54,037 --> 00:35:57,717
Ross's family was able to raise
over a million dollars for his bail.

596
00:35:57,917 --> 00:36:01,977
But the prosecution argued that due
to the alleged Murders-For-Hire,

597
00:36:02,077 --> 00:36:06,357
Ross was too dangerous to release
and so his bail was denied.

598
00:36:06,477 --> 00:36:08,017
I thought it was the wrong decision.

599
00:36:08,117 --> 00:36:10,337
He wouldn't have been a flight risk
and he's never been

600
00:36:10,437 --> 00:36:12,257
and is not a danger to anyone.

601
00:36:12,357 --> 00:36:18,317
[For him to say "I'm gonna put a hit out
on someone" is ludicrous.]

602
00:36:18,437 --> 00:36:23,077
[I can understand it being one
of these other DPR workers...]

603
00:36:23,637 --> 00:36:27,737
[getting all egotistical
and crazy and maniacal]

604
00:36:27,837 --> 00:36:31,237
[and doing it, that I could see.]

605
00:36:31,357 --> 00:36:34,857
There was more than one person
using the DPR account?

606
00:36:34,957 --> 00:36:41,697
[I believe it was at least 2 other people,
if not 3 at one point.]

607
00:36:41,797 --> 00:36:47,517
[It doesn't matter.
That's why they're dredging up this hit.]

608
00:36:48,397 --> 00:36:51,077
[Contract baloney.]

609
00:36:51,197 --> 00:36:54,957
[But because of the involvement
of a Senator and...]

610
00:36:55,917 --> 00:36:58,197
[all that other shit
they're gonna cook him.]

611
00:36:58,837 --> 00:37:03,157
The data seized from the Silk Road servers
included all internal private messages,

612
00:37:03,277 --> 00:37:06,797
which revealed that many people
collectively ran the site.

613
00:37:07,157 --> 00:37:09,377
One vendor with the user name
"Variety Jones"

614
00:37:09,477 --> 00:37:12,177
was active from the beginning
of the Silk Road.

615
00:37:12,277 --> 00:37:15,037
Jones gave many of the orders
for running the Silk Road,

616
00:37:15,157 --> 00:37:20,677
even instructing the systems administrator
to create the Dread Pirate Roberts persona.

617
00:37:20,997 --> 00:37:25,637
But Ross Ulbricht remained
the primary focus of the investigation.

618
00:37:25,997 --> 00:37:28,437
Ross has been incarcerated for over a year

619
00:37:28,557 --> 00:37:32,157
in the Metropolitan Detention Center
in Brooklyn awaiting trial.

620
00:37:32,277 --> 00:37:35,557
Six weeks of that time
was in solitary confinement.

621
00:37:35,677 --> 00:37:39,757
Ross plead not guilty and denies
being the Dread Pirate Roberts.

622
00:37:39,877 --> 00:37:44,417
His trial was set for November 10,
2014 in New York City.

623
00:37:44,517 --> 00:37:48,417
If convicted, Ross faces
a minimum sentence of 30 years

624
00:37:48,517 --> 00:37:52,197
with a maximum sentence of life in prison.

625
00:37:52,357 --> 00:37:54,557
Are you taking a video?

626
00:37:55,037 --> 00:37:57,597
- Should we...
- He's a hairy fucker.

627
00:37:57,717 --> 00:38:00,416
These big guys are generally not too...

628
00:38:00,516 --> 00:38:02,956
I would let him off somewhere.

629
00:38:03,076 --> 00:38:04,056
Where is he?

630
00:38:04,156 --> 00:38:06,876
You know, it's hard.
It's hard on a family.

631
00:38:06,996 --> 00:38:09,756
It really is, especially when
you love that person so much

632
00:38:09,876 --> 00:38:11,456
and you believe in them so much

633
00:38:11,556 --> 00:38:14,876
and you have such a daunting
Goliath of an opponent.

634
00:38:14,996 --> 00:38:17,396
It's... challenging.

635
00:38:17,556 --> 00:38:20,736
It's kind of like a death, in a way,
when you go like, "No, that can't be true,"

636
00:38:20,836 --> 00:38:22,716
and then you're like,
"Oh, yeah, it's true."

637
00:38:22,836 --> 00:38:25,056
And you go through that kind of shock.

638
00:38:25,156 --> 00:38:26,836
His dad, my husband...

639
00:38:26,996 --> 00:38:29,816
of course, he's trying to keep our business
going so we have a livelihood.

640
00:38:29,916 --> 00:38:32,816
And his sister is in... Australia

641
00:38:32,916 --> 00:38:34,736
and she's been helping, too, from there.

642
00:38:34,836 --> 00:38:36,476
I'm Ross' sister and I can tell you

643
00:38:36,596 --> 00:38:39,796
he has been a man of his word
and honor all his life.

644
00:38:39,916 --> 00:38:43,956
I was shocked to hear the news of his
arrest, but felt even more dismayed

645
00:38:44,076 --> 00:38:47,756
at what the media was writing
about him, not even knowing him.

646
00:38:49,316 --> 00:38:52,996
You know, I read things by people
who have not a clue who Ross really is.

647
00:38:55,276 --> 00:38:58,656
He's been tried and convicted
in the media.

648
00:38:58,756 --> 00:39:01,236
Nothing has been proven at all.

649
00:39:01,556 --> 00:39:03,796
I don't know what's happened to the
presumption of innocence in this country,

650
00:39:03,916 --> 00:39:08,156
but it is a constitutional right here
that we are innocent until proven guilty.

651
00:39:08,276 --> 00:39:11,956
Ross sent me this picture
of himself about a week ago.

652
00:39:12,076 --> 00:39:14,876
It was taken a couple
of weeks ago in prison.

653
00:39:14,996 --> 00:39:18,336
I guess sometimes they go around
and take pictures for the families.

654
00:39:18,436 --> 00:39:20,416
He is doing well...

655
00:39:20,516 --> 00:39:24,456
as well as can be expected,
of course, under the circumstances.

656
00:39:24,556 --> 00:39:27,856
And finally, after five months of delays,

657
00:39:27,956 --> 00:39:32,736
he has had access to the discovery,
the evidence that the prosecution has.

658
00:39:32,836 --> 00:39:35,616
And so he's been working
very hard going through that.

659
00:39:35,716 --> 00:39:37,936
We are asking the prosecution,

660
00:39:38,036 --> 00:39:41,636
"How did you find the server,"
and they're not saying.

661
00:39:42,116 --> 00:39:43,976
We have to know how they found the server

662
00:39:44,076 --> 00:39:47,696
in order to see if Ross' Fourth
Amendment rights have been violated.

663
00:39:47,796 --> 00:39:51,796
And how would anyone know if the evidence
had been tampered with or anything else

664
00:39:51,916 --> 00:39:55,516
if it's not revealed
how they found the server?

665
00:39:55,636 --> 00:39:58,896
There were 14 searches
and seizures in this case,

666
00:39:58,996 --> 00:40:02,496
which is a... a fishing expedition

667
00:40:02,596 --> 00:40:05,456
into a person's total property.

668
00:40:05,556 --> 00:40:09,076
Unlimited rummaging through all of
their things to see what they can find.

669
00:40:09,236 --> 00:40:12,216
When the criminal complaints
first appeared in October,

670
00:40:12,316 --> 00:40:15,316
I think the supporters
of the Dread Pirate Roberts

671
00:40:15,436 --> 00:40:17,216
and the Silk Road just scattered.

672
00:40:17,316 --> 00:40:20,916
Because suddenly this thing that had
seemed like an idealistic community

673
00:40:21,036 --> 00:40:25,536
built around non-violence and...
you know, libertarian free commerce,

674
00:40:25,636 --> 00:40:28,656
suddenly seemed instead like
this bloody criminal conspiracy.

675
00:40:28,756 --> 00:40:34,296
And a guy who probably otherwise
would have been a kind of...

676
00:40:34,396 --> 00:40:36,196
political cause célèbre,

677
00:40:36,316 --> 00:40:40,056
who would have had all of these
supporters calling for his freedom,

678
00:40:40,156 --> 00:40:44,095
instead was treated as a...
was an immediate pariah.

679
00:40:44,195 --> 00:40:45,435
He was seen as a criminal.

680
00:40:45,555 --> 00:40:49,575
So there's a lot of... circumstantial...

681
00:40:49,675 --> 00:40:51,855
evidence, if you want to call it that.

682
00:40:51,955 --> 00:40:54,775
There's a lot of technical bits
and pieces involved.

683
00:40:54,875 --> 00:40:56,815
It got really crazy in the middle of that.

684
00:40:56,915 --> 00:40:59,635
Sort of one thing is taking down
this online drug market.

685
00:40:59,755 --> 00:41:03,135
Another thing is pinning a number
of Murders-For-Hires on top of it.

686
00:41:03,235 --> 00:41:05,055
It just seems really, really far-fetched.

687
00:41:05,155 --> 00:41:08,775
The 29-year-old seemingly
clean-cut entrepreneur

688
00:41:08,875 --> 00:41:12,115
was living a secret life
as a digital drug lord.

689
00:41:12,235 --> 00:41:15,415
They're claiming that he's living
in a manner of a head of a cartel.

690
00:41:15,515 --> 00:41:18,235
The distinctions between Ross Ulbricht
and the head of a cartel,

691
00:41:18,355 --> 00:41:22,555
you don't have to see too many movies to
recognize what the differences are here.

692
00:41:22,835 --> 00:41:25,115
Then when the indictment finally came out,

693
00:41:25,235 --> 00:41:29,055
there were suddenly no charges around
these Murder-For-Hire accusations,

694
00:41:29,155 --> 00:41:33,295
only the drug trafficking and money
laundering and computer hacking.

695
00:41:33,395 --> 00:41:38,075
They had six charges. They used them
against him to deprive him of bail

696
00:41:38,195 --> 00:41:42,655
and yet two and a half months later...
the prosecutor didn't indict him.

697
00:41:42,755 --> 00:41:46,615
What they did instead was they
called it an "uncharged crime."

698
00:41:46,715 --> 00:41:49,135
Well, if something's a crime,
don't you charge someone for it?

699
00:41:49,235 --> 00:41:52,415
And if it's not a crime,
why is it there...

700
00:41:52,515 --> 00:41:54,835
Because it's prejudicial to a jury

701
00:41:54,955 --> 00:41:59,755
to have that sitting there unproven
just... just smearing him.

702
00:42:00,315 --> 00:42:05,135
The portrayal they want
is of someone who they could

703
00:42:05,235 --> 00:42:07,675
present to a jury
of not having redeeming value.

704
00:42:07,795 --> 00:42:10,775
It's a way of poisoning the atmosphere

705
00:42:10,875 --> 00:42:14,575
so that the jury doesn't focus
on the allegations,

706
00:42:14,675 --> 00:42:17,755
but focuses on this atmospheric
that the government has created

707
00:42:17,875 --> 00:42:20,955
that in some sense is a diversion
appealing to the emotional aspect of it

708
00:42:21,075 --> 00:42:25,335
so that if the proof is weak, the benefit
of the doubt doesn't go to the defendant,

709
00:42:25,435 --> 00:42:27,555
where it belongs,
under the presumption of innocence,

710
00:42:27,675 --> 00:42:31,295
but it goes to the government because there
are these awful things lurking out there

711
00:42:31,395 --> 00:42:32,955
which aren't part
of what we're supposed to find.

712
00:42:33,075 --> 00:42:34,875
The government doesn't have to
prove them beyond a reasonable doubt,

713
00:42:34,995 --> 00:42:36,615
but they've injected them in the case

714
00:42:36,715 --> 00:42:40,815
in a way that is toxic
to an impartial evaluation

715
00:42:40,915 --> 00:42:42,815
of what the evidence
is on the charged crimes.

716
00:42:42,915 --> 00:42:46,835
So people come in with a preconceived notion
and that's halfway there to guilt.

717
00:42:46,955 --> 00:42:51,615
Previously, the Murder-For-Hire was in there
as a charge and then it was dropped.

718
00:42:51,715 --> 00:42:53,335
But it's not gone away.

719
00:42:53,435 --> 00:42:56,115
It's included
as what they call an overt act

720
00:42:56,235 --> 00:42:59,635
in the conspiracy and to sell drugs.

721
00:42:59,755 --> 00:43:03,575
And so they actually made it
one of the things to support

722
00:43:03,675 --> 00:43:05,595
the larger drug conspiracy

723
00:43:05,755 --> 00:43:08,915
to either get a trial or get him to plead.

724
00:43:09,035 --> 00:43:12,235
It seemed like this bait and switch
that the government had accused him

725
00:43:12,355 --> 00:43:15,755
in this almost informal way of murder

726
00:43:15,875 --> 00:43:19,735
so that when he was charged with these
non-violent crimes in the end,

727
00:43:19,835 --> 00:43:22,255
he would still be seen
as a violent criminal.

728
00:43:22,355 --> 00:43:24,915
I think that that has
really been effective in...

729
00:43:25,035 --> 00:43:28,435
in coloring the portrait of Ross Ulbricht.

730
00:43:31,114 --> 00:43:32,854
Ever since Ross' arrest,

731
00:43:32,954 --> 00:43:36,714
he and his best friend Rene Pinnell
have remained in regular contact.

732
00:43:37,074 --> 00:43:39,874
Rene declined to give
substantive interviews to the press

733
00:43:39,994 --> 00:43:42,874
for fear they would be used
against Ross in court,

734
00:43:42,994 --> 00:43:46,994
but agreed to answer questions via email.

735
00:44:24,434 --> 00:44:28,114
<i># I'm a little teapot, short and stout #</i>

736
00:44:28,234 --> 00:44:31,694
<i># Here is my handle here is my spout #</i>

737
00:44:31,794 --> 00:44:35,214
<i># When I get all steamed up
hear me shout #</i>

738
00:44:35,314 --> 00:44:38,294
<i># Tip me over and pour me out #</i>

739
00:44:38,394 --> 00:44:40,234
Yay!

740
00:44:42,514 --> 00:44:44,474
Because of the severity of the charges,

741
00:44:44,594 --> 00:44:47,574
Ross was not able to grant
an interview from prison,

742
00:44:47,674 --> 00:44:51,574
which left only a scattering
of his personal photographs and movies.

743
00:44:51,674 --> 00:44:54,654
But from the exhaustive discussions
with friends and family

744
00:44:54,754 --> 00:44:57,214
and the public knowledge
of Ross's trajectory

745
00:44:57,314 --> 00:45:01,754
from Physics and Engineering major to running
a small home-spun book-selling company,

746
00:45:01,874 --> 00:45:05,514
it was difficult to understand how he could
possibly have been the sole mastermind

747
00:45:05,634 --> 00:45:08,914
of the Silk Road,
a vast and complex Internet service

748
00:45:09,034 --> 00:45:11,994
with over a million users worldwide.

749
00:45:12,114 --> 00:45:14,574
Ross was certainly bright
and studious with a deep interest

750
00:45:14,674 --> 00:45:18,674
in libertarian economic theory, which
clearly echoed the mandate and philosophy

751
00:45:18,794 --> 00:45:21,434
of many of the posts
of the Dread Pirate Roberts.

752
00:45:21,554 --> 00:45:24,474
But he had no experience whatsoever
in computer coding

753
00:45:24,594 --> 00:45:26,774
or scaling large Internet companies.

754
00:45:26,874 --> 00:45:29,614
So how did Ross connect
to what little is truly known

755
00:45:29,714 --> 00:45:31,794
about the Dread Pirate Roberts?

756
00:45:32,274 --> 00:45:35,274
DPR was motivated
by a pacifistic philosophy

757
00:45:35,474 --> 00:45:39,934
and an agenda of creating victimless
exchange and reduced harm in the drug trade.

758
00:45:40,034 --> 00:45:44,314
This ethos would be embraced by the chief
architects and vendors of the Silk Road

759
00:45:44,434 --> 00:45:47,214
and reverberate
through the entire community.

760
00:45:47,314 --> 00:45:49,734
[There were quite a few people
that I didn't sell to]

761
00:45:49,834 --> 00:45:55,234
[just because I could tell that they were
obviously not mature enough to handle]

762
00:45:55,354 --> 00:46:00,274
[using these drugs, and didn't know enough.
It was like "Go read first...]

763
00:46:00,394 --> 00:46:05,134
["go figure it out and then come back
to me and I'll sell you something"]

764
00:46:05,234 --> 00:46:09,394
["but I'm not gonna pop your cherry
and kill you, potentially."]

765
00:46:09,514 --> 00:46:13,954
[The heroin in particular I was very careful
about who I sold it to because...]

766
00:46:14,594 --> 00:46:19,113
[it was not stepped on.
It was the best heroin on Silk Road.]

767
00:46:19,673 --> 00:46:22,133
The Silk Road appeared to be
a successful experiment

768
00:46:22,233 --> 00:46:24,213
in creating a pacifistic community,

769
00:46:24,313 --> 00:46:27,433
overseen by a figurehead
with a deep-rooted ideology.

770
00:46:27,713 --> 00:46:30,173
But these core ideals
of the Dread Pirate Roberts

771
00:46:30,273 --> 00:46:33,193
were completely at odds
with the Murder-For-Hire allegations.

772
00:46:33,473 --> 00:46:35,133
Did DPR become corrupted

773
00:46:35,233 --> 00:46:39,513
and turn his back on the mandate
of non-violence and harm reduction?

774
00:46:39,633 --> 00:46:42,253
Were there other people
using the DPR account

775
00:46:42,353 --> 00:46:44,673
who were responsible for these actions?

776
00:46:44,873 --> 00:46:46,613
Or was there some other truth

777
00:46:46,713 --> 00:46:51,633
behind these alleged murder hits
that produced no victims?

778
00:46:58,513 --> 00:47:00,793
We don't know the first piece of evidence

779
00:47:00,913 --> 00:47:05,173
that lead the feds down
this chain of investigation

780
00:47:05,273 --> 00:47:10,133
to the San Francisco library
where Ross Ulbricht was arrested.

781
00:47:10,233 --> 00:47:13,533
All we know is that at some point
they located the Silk Road servers

782
00:47:13,633 --> 00:47:16,893
in a data center in Iceland
and imaged them.

783
00:47:16,993 --> 00:47:20,793
They copied all the data
off of them, and seized them...

784
00:47:20,913 --> 00:47:22,833
but we don't know
how they found those servers.

785
00:47:22,953 --> 00:47:26,673
The whole idea of the Silk Road was
that it ran as a Tor-hidden service,

786
00:47:26,793 --> 00:47:29,533
which means that Tor
protected its physical location

787
00:47:29,633 --> 00:47:33,053
and made it very difficult
to locate the computers that ran it.

788
00:47:33,153 --> 00:47:38,973
So the mystery of how the FBI,
or the DEA, or possibly the NSA,

789
00:47:39,073 --> 00:47:41,613
located those servers is still unsolved

790
00:47:41,713 --> 00:47:45,133
and, in fact, hasn't been mentioned
in any of the legal documents

791
00:47:45,233 --> 00:47:47,773
surrounding Ross Ulbricht's trial.

792
00:47:47,873 --> 00:47:50,173
I think his defense
has seized on this as...

793
00:47:50,273 --> 00:47:52,853
something that the government
doesn't want to talk about.

794
00:47:52,953 --> 00:47:58,173
And if that's the case, then it does raise
these Fourth Amendment issues

795
00:47:58,273 --> 00:48:01,913
of can the government use
essentially hacking techniques

796
00:48:02,033 --> 00:48:05,133
to dig up evidence on a criminal suspect?

797
00:48:05,233 --> 00:48:07,573
And if so, what kinds
of warrant do they need?

798
00:48:07,673 --> 00:48:10,333
If in fact there was some kind
of violation of the Fourth Amendment,

799
00:48:10,433 --> 00:48:13,573
in that initial part of the investigation,

800
00:48:13,673 --> 00:48:17,753
that really was the first clue
that lead them down this entire chain

801
00:48:17,873 --> 00:48:19,213
to the arrest of Ross Ulbricht,

802
00:48:19,313 --> 00:48:21,693
it could be a giant problem
for the prosecution

803
00:48:21,793 --> 00:48:26,433
that then taints every other piece
of evidence that they found subsequently.

804
00:48:27,313 --> 00:48:29,353
The government has prosecuted
other people for doing

805
00:48:29,473 --> 00:48:33,233
essentially what the government
did here, which is...

806
00:48:35,153 --> 00:48:39,253
trying to get underneath
the public face of a website.

807
00:48:39,353 --> 00:48:41,853
And they have alleged
that getting that information

808
00:48:41,953 --> 00:48:43,773
that's not supposed
to be publicly accessible

809
00:48:43,873 --> 00:48:48,333
by sophisticated computer,
inquiries or activities,

810
00:48:48,433 --> 00:48:52,133
that that is a violation of federal law.

811
00:48:52,233 --> 00:48:54,573
So here's... and that's why they always say,
we didn't do anything wrong,

812
00:48:54,673 --> 00:48:57,893
we didn't do anything in violation,
but they really know what's at stake here,

813
00:48:57,993 --> 00:49:00,653
because they've actually
prosecuted people for the same thing.

814
00:49:00,753 --> 00:49:04,052
And the government's affidavit,
the affidavit from Agent Tarbell

815
00:49:04,152 --> 00:49:06,432
about how they got
to the Silk Road servers

816
00:49:06,552 --> 00:49:11,152
has been met with incredulousness
by the Internet community.

817
00:49:11,552 --> 00:49:14,292
The Tarbell declaration,
to put it politely,

818
00:49:14,392 --> 00:49:17,392
seems vaguely disconnected from the truth.

819
00:49:17,512 --> 00:49:20,252
If you, depending on which
security expert you ask,

820
00:49:20,352 --> 00:49:25,612
you will get it's vaguely disconnected
to the truth to something filled with...

821
00:49:25,712 --> 00:49:28,412
it is a massive pile of bovine excrement.

822
00:49:28,512 --> 00:49:32,372
What Tarbell's story was is he was
typing away at his computer,

823
00:49:32,472 --> 00:49:37,392
visiting the Silk Road website and the
CAPTCHA was transmitted in the clear,

824
00:49:37,512 --> 00:49:41,972
and he somehow saw the IP packets
go directly to the server.

825
00:49:42,072 --> 00:49:44,892
And so he then connects to that server
and gets the CAPTCHA.

826
00:49:44,992 --> 00:49:47,632
Game over, they found the backend server.

827
00:49:47,752 --> 00:49:53,912
Unfortunately, this was playing fast
and loose with the truth.

828
00:49:54,032 --> 00:49:57,512
Because the logs provided to the defense

829
00:49:57,632 --> 00:50:02,812
show that what Tarbell found
was not the CAPTCHA image,

830
00:50:02,912 --> 00:50:05,652
but instead a php MyAdmin page.

831
00:50:05,752 --> 00:50:10,172
The server was running some stuff
over the clear, but not the CAPTCHA.

832
00:50:10,272 --> 00:50:15,632
So Tarbell's story doesn't mesh
with the FBI's own evidence.

833
00:50:16,312 --> 00:50:20,332
They hacked the servers and with that access
could essentially do whatever they wanted.

834
00:50:20,432 --> 00:50:23,472
Given just the institutional pressure
to take this thing down,

835
00:50:23,592 --> 00:50:26,112
it's naive to think that they didn't.

836
00:50:28,032 --> 00:50:30,392
Of course, it's on the table
that this is how they discovered him.

837
00:50:30,512 --> 00:50:32,952
He was dealing with Tor.
He was dealing with all these technologies

838
00:50:33,072 --> 00:50:35,572
which we know are the subject
of NSA investigations,

839
00:50:35,672 --> 00:50:37,132
as revealed by Edward Snowden.

840
00:50:37,232 --> 00:50:39,952
It's at least reasonable to assume
that there's been this kind

841
00:50:40,072 --> 00:50:43,372
of parallel construction or interference
or like not playing by the rules

842
00:50:43,472 --> 00:50:45,052
that the state deals out
for you to play with.

843
00:50:45,152 --> 00:50:48,472
But then again,
we all know that it deals the cards.

844
00:50:48,592 --> 00:50:50,952
It runs the game anyway. It's not even...

845
00:50:51,072 --> 00:50:54,772
It's naive to think that
this wasn't an available option.

846
00:50:54,872 --> 00:51:00,032
The issue is whether the agent
could have done what he said he did.

847
00:51:00,152 --> 00:51:02,932
The theory that's been
brought forward in a testimony

848
00:51:03,032 --> 00:51:05,432
by the individual agents that did it,

849
00:51:05,552 --> 00:51:08,572
they were able to manipulate
part of the server

850
00:51:08,672 --> 00:51:12,492
to cough up an address
that shouldn't have been given up

851
00:51:12,592 --> 00:51:14,772
and that address came back to Iceland.

852
00:51:14,872 --> 00:51:19,192
And that server there was hosting
the Silk Road hidden service.

853
00:51:19,952 --> 00:51:22,332
I think we're not gonna know
till we go to trial

854
00:51:22,432 --> 00:51:24,112
and we may never know for sure.

855
00:51:24,232 --> 00:51:27,012
There's always this balance of...

856
00:51:27,112 --> 00:51:29,772
trying to be forward leaning
in your investigative techniques

857
00:51:29,872 --> 00:51:32,752
and making sure that you don't
trample on rights at the same time.

858
00:51:32,872 --> 00:51:36,412
You wanna stay well within the bounds
of your legal authority,

859
00:51:36,512 --> 00:51:40,852
because if you step over the line,
the evidence is gonna be tossed.

860
00:51:40,952 --> 00:51:44,112
It's not gonna be admissible in court
and you may wind up

861
00:51:44,232 --> 00:51:46,772
jeopardizing the outcome
of an entire investigation.

862
00:51:46,872 --> 00:51:49,011
And so I think what agencies
will try and do is...

863
00:51:49,111 --> 00:51:50,931
they'll want to step right up to the line,

864
00:51:51,031 --> 00:51:54,871
and maybe get a little bit of chalk
on their toes, but don't step over it.

865
00:51:54,991 --> 00:51:58,991
Ross' lawyer made a motion to dismiss
the case based on the disputed seizure

866
00:51:59,111 --> 00:52:02,971
of the Silk Road servers,
arguing that admitting this material

867
00:52:03,071 --> 00:52:06,251
not only violates his client's
Fourth Amendment rights,

868
00:52:06,351 --> 00:52:10,551
but would set a dangerous precedent
for the rights to privacy of all citizens.

869
00:52:11,191 --> 00:52:14,251
The judge, Katherine Forest,
sided with the prosecution

870
00:52:14,351 --> 00:52:17,231
stating that the Tarbell declaration
was acceptable.

871
00:52:17,511 --> 00:52:19,951
And the motion was denied.

872
00:52:24,991 --> 00:52:28,591
Search and seizure law
in the digital age is really...

873
00:52:28,711 --> 00:52:32,331
doesn't have the limitations on it that...

874
00:52:32,431 --> 00:52:34,171
it does in the physical space.

875
00:52:34,271 --> 00:52:38,011
And we see it not only
in the search and seizure laws,

876
00:52:38,111 --> 00:52:41,491
like what is the standard upon which they
can come and grab your computer?

877
00:52:41,591 --> 00:52:44,651
What kind of searches can they do
on your computer once they have it?

878
00:52:44,751 --> 00:52:46,991
Do they just get everything?
We see this at the border.

879
00:52:47,111 --> 00:52:48,651
Or we see this at searches into arrests.

880
00:52:48,751 --> 00:52:53,111
People now carry around smart phones
that have their whole lives in them.

881
00:52:53,231 --> 00:52:57,251
And if they get stopped,
law enforcement is certainly right now

882
00:52:57,351 --> 00:53:00,531
in a lot of places taking the position
that absolutely anything that's connected,

883
00:53:00,631 --> 00:53:04,731
that's on that device,
including logging into your accounts

884
00:53:04,831 --> 00:53:07,991
that you can log into from
that device, is fair game.

885
00:53:08,111 --> 00:53:12,011
If the prosecution gets away
with this warrantless seizure

886
00:53:12,111 --> 00:53:15,731
of Americans' data as well as
all these other foreigners,

887
00:53:15,831 --> 00:53:17,951
it could have a lasting precedent

888
00:53:18,071 --> 00:53:20,651
for how the Fourth Amendment
works in the digital age.

889
00:53:20,751 --> 00:53:25,211
I think that that, in fact, may be the
most lasting effect of the Silk Road.

890
00:53:25,311 --> 00:53:28,891
Generally, what happens
in the criminal law field

891
00:53:28,991 --> 00:53:33,451
is that there's some case
of major proportion

892
00:53:33,551 --> 00:53:36,851
that is used as a means of changing rules,

893
00:53:36,951 --> 00:53:40,691
or expanding exceptions
to constitutional protections,

894
00:53:40,791 --> 00:53:42,891
and once it's there,
once the precedent is set,

895
00:53:42,991 --> 00:53:45,131
it then trickles down
very quickly and very easily

896
00:53:45,231 --> 00:53:48,951
into all sorts of ordinary cases where,
you know, the ends justify the means.

897
00:53:49,071 --> 00:53:51,811
Then all of a sudden, it's now spread.

898
00:53:51,911 --> 00:53:55,631
The average citizen may say, "Well,
why is this important to me? Why do I care?

899
00:53:55,751 --> 00:53:58,991
"I'm not buying drugs on the network. Nobody
I know is buying drugs on the network,"

900
00:53:59,111 --> 00:54:00,331
but it's not just about that.

901
00:54:00,431 --> 00:54:04,831
We're a democracy and informed citizens...

902
00:54:05,551 --> 00:54:07,631
understand they have a right to privacy

903
00:54:07,751 --> 00:54:12,571
and that the Fourth Amendment protects
against unreasonable searches and seizures.

904
00:54:12,671 --> 00:54:14,331
Information has to be encrypted.

905
00:54:14,431 --> 00:54:18,231
And that goes from a large corporation
down to an individual.

906
00:54:18,351 --> 00:54:23,291
And so for those who are arguing that
information should not be encrypted,

907
00:54:23,391 --> 00:54:28,471
certainly that makes it easier
for law enforcement to... combat,

908
00:54:28,591 --> 00:54:32,131
but it also makes it easier
for the cyber criminals to attack.

909
00:54:32,231 --> 00:54:35,410
It makes total sense that criminals
are among the early wave,

910
00:54:35,510 --> 00:54:38,830
along with the sort of paranoid people,
of these new tools and services.

911
00:54:38,950 --> 00:54:41,710
But that doesn't mean that they're
the only people using these services.

912
00:54:41,830 --> 00:54:43,890
There are a hell of a lot
of journalists that I know

913
00:54:43,990 --> 00:54:46,390
and regularly communicate
with now over Tor.

914
00:54:46,510 --> 00:54:49,890
But you know, for the people
who oppose this technology,

915
00:54:49,990 --> 00:54:52,630
who see it as a threat,
the fact that criminals use it

916
00:54:52,750 --> 00:54:55,250
is a great way to demonize it.

917
00:54:55,350 --> 00:54:57,430
I definitely do believe
that there are people in the US

918
00:54:57,550 --> 00:54:59,890
that don't think that the government
is doing anything wrong.

919
00:54:59,990 --> 00:55:03,530
It's not necessarily something that you're
concerned with or that you care too much about

920
00:55:03,630 --> 00:55:07,250
or that you're really passionate about until
you're standing right in the middle of it.

921
00:55:07,350 --> 00:55:11,410
And it's something more dangerous
than any website could ever be

922
00:55:11,510 --> 00:55:14,570
is what our government has become
and how they operate.

923
00:55:14,670 --> 00:55:17,910
This goes back to that question of the
government kind of trying to treat the Internet

924
00:55:18,030 --> 00:55:23,070
differently without following
the same kind of judicial processes.

925
00:55:23,190 --> 00:55:26,110
Well, the Supreme Court has proven
that they do not agree.

926
00:55:26,350 --> 00:55:31,030
You know, recently with Riley vs California
with an illegal search of a cell phone.

927
00:55:31,430 --> 00:55:36,730
Precedent can be set that will limit
their ability to infringe on our rights.

928
00:55:36,830 --> 00:55:41,370
Someone asked how
her political views have shifted.

929
00:55:41,470 --> 00:55:45,170
Because suddenly she's standing
right in the middle of Tor,

930
00:55:45,270 --> 00:55:50,290
Bitcoin, the war on drugs,
online anonymity, encryption.

931
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:53,690
And she's had a... she's had
to learn a lot of different things,

932
00:55:53,790 --> 00:55:57,370
and also not only
just the whole legal system but...

933
00:55:57,470 --> 00:56:00,590
everything around
the technology and the case.

934
00:56:02,510 --> 00:56:06,610
After over a year in prison,
Ross delayed the trial two months,

935
00:56:06,710 --> 00:56:10,050
stating that important discovery evidence
he needed to examine

936
00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:13,350
had only just been delivered
to him by the prosecution.

937
00:56:13,950 --> 00:56:16,770
The FBI shut down what it calls
the most sophisticated

938
00:56:16,870 --> 00:56:19,730
and extensive criminal marketplace
on the Internet,

939
00:56:19,830 --> 00:56:22,270
but it may be finding new life.

940
00:56:22,430 --> 00:56:25,610
The arrest of Ross Ulbricht
and closure of the Silk Road

941
00:56:25,710 --> 00:56:28,690
did nothing to hamper
drug sales on the dark net.

942
00:56:28,790 --> 00:56:30,970
Many new markets immediately appeared,

943
00:56:31,070 --> 00:56:33,970
including a re-launch
of the Silk Road itself,

944
00:56:34,070 --> 00:56:38,010
also run by someone calling themselves
the Dread Pirate Roberts.

945
00:56:38,110 --> 00:56:41,790
And like its predecessor, the second
Silk Road also claimed a mandate

946
00:56:41,910 --> 00:56:45,370
of reducing violence and harm
in drug transactions.

947
00:56:45,470 --> 00:56:50,390
The Dread Pirate tweets, "Silk Road while
under my watch will never harm a soul.

948
00:56:50,510 --> 00:56:53,970
If we did, then we are no better
than the thugs on the street."

949
00:56:54,070 --> 00:56:58,390
The new Dread Pirate Roberts told me
that he knows he can't be around forever,

950
00:56:58,510 --> 00:57:01,490
and when he's gone, someone else...

951
00:57:01,590 --> 00:57:04,210
he's confident someone else
will step up and fill the void.

952
00:57:04,310 --> 00:57:07,530
You can take down the man,
but you can't take down the idea.

953
00:57:07,630 --> 00:57:11,770
By this time, statistics appeared
claiming the first Silk Road had succeeded

954
00:57:11,870 --> 00:57:15,870
in its mission of reducing
violence in the drug trade.

955
00:57:21,789 --> 00:57:24,989
While I was with the Baltimore
Police Department in the early 2000s,

956
00:57:25,109 --> 00:57:30,109
I had two city officers in uniform
killed by drug dealers on the street.

957
00:57:30,509 --> 00:57:34,889
And there was a family of seven,
the Dawson family on Preston Street,

958
00:57:34,989 --> 00:57:39,789
they were killed by one drug dealer in
one night, mother, father and five kids.

959
00:57:41,549 --> 00:57:45,609
And so as the years in the early
2000s start moving along,

960
00:57:45,709 --> 00:57:49,869
I'm continuing to think about this
from a place of violence

961
00:57:50,229 --> 00:57:53,589
and beginning to realize that
our policies of drug prohibition

962
00:57:53,709 --> 00:57:56,489
were actually counterproductive
to public safety.

963
00:57:56,589 --> 00:57:59,989
The one thing that I signed on
for to improve,

964
00:58:00,109 --> 00:58:03,889
to better public safety in our
neighborhoods, was making it worse.

965
00:58:03,989 --> 00:58:06,989
And... I found

966
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:11,989
a large number of police officers and judges
and criminal prosecutors and...

967
00:58:12,109 --> 00:58:16,629
DEA agents and FBI who think the same way.

968
00:58:16,749 --> 00:58:20,369
If Baltimore moved
from street corners to online services,

969
00:58:20,469 --> 00:58:22,409
oh, my God, do you know
how many shootings,

970
00:58:22,509 --> 00:58:26,729
how many fewer shootings we would have
every year, which equate to fewer homicides?

971
00:58:26,829 --> 00:58:30,109
Number one, it removes the... the buyer...

972
00:58:30,709 --> 00:58:33,389
from the back alleys
and from the street corners

973
00:58:33,509 --> 00:58:36,949
and from those dangerous places
of dealing with the seller.

974
00:58:37,069 --> 00:58:39,449
Buying it over the Internet
where it's delivered to you,

975
00:58:39,549 --> 00:58:41,209
removes you from that scenario.

976
00:58:41,309 --> 00:58:44,749
One of the interesting things
that having an online market does

977
00:58:44,869 --> 00:58:47,569
is that it makes sellers
much more accountable to buyers.

978
00:58:47,669 --> 00:58:50,509
And one of the really interesting innovations
is the whole review system,

979
00:58:50,829 --> 00:58:54,049
where buyers can review
the sellers and the items

980
00:58:54,149 --> 00:58:58,009
that they bought from these
on these market places.

981
00:58:58,109 --> 00:59:02,249
And what that does is it makes sellers
more accountable and it lets buyers...

982
00:59:02,349 --> 00:59:05,809
it gives buyers a way
to assess both the quality,

983
00:59:05,909 --> 00:59:08,529
the purity and the potency
of the drugs they're getting.

984
00:59:08,629 --> 00:59:12,389
It makes these transactions
much more safe for the buyers.

985
00:59:12,869 --> 00:59:16,849
But we're shutting them down,
attempting to shut them down,

986
00:59:16,949 --> 00:59:19,069
because we will never shut them down.

987
00:59:20,029 --> 00:59:23,349
We've been at this drug war now
for over four decades,

988
00:59:23,469 --> 00:59:24,909
and what has happened since then?

989
00:59:25,029 --> 00:59:29,309
At the beginning, it was just the cartels
and organized crime making a ton of money.

990
00:59:29,589 --> 00:59:34,089
Today, they make globally
$322 billion off this industry.

991
00:59:34,189 --> 00:59:36,649
Corporate America's also now in the game.

992
00:59:36,749 --> 00:59:40,629
Private prisons, okay?
Corrections Corporation of America.

993
00:59:40,749 --> 00:59:46,089
About a year ago they gave out $675 million
in dividends to the shareholders.

994
00:59:46,189 --> 00:59:50,509
Drug testing companies. It's now become
a multi-billion-dollar industry.

995
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:52,269
And who gets tested?

996
00:59:52,389 --> 00:59:56,689
Those who are in prison or under the
control of our criminal justice programs...

997
00:59:56,789 --> 00:59:58,109
on parole and probation.

998
00:59:58,229 --> 01:00:00,249
So corporate America's
making a lot of money.

999
01:00:00,349 --> 01:00:03,469
What about law enforcement?
Law enforcement's making a ton of money.

1000
01:00:03,589 --> 01:00:05,768
The government's 1033 Program, you know,

1001
01:00:05,868 --> 01:00:09,048
where we get armored vehicles
and machine guns

1002
01:00:09,148 --> 01:00:12,668
and whatever we want
of the surplus military equipment...

1003
01:00:12,788 --> 01:00:14,168
that's because of the drug war.

1004
01:00:14,268 --> 01:00:16,468
Over the years we've seen these...

1005
01:00:16,588 --> 01:00:19,848
these huge bureaucracies
build up around the drug war,

1006
01:00:19,948 --> 01:00:22,808
around prosecuting the drug war.
You've got the Drug Enforcement Agency.

1007
01:00:22,908 --> 01:00:25,528
You've got the Office
of National Drug Control Policy.

1008
01:00:25,628 --> 01:00:29,948
So a lot of the opposition is just
rooted in self interest

1009
01:00:30,068 --> 01:00:33,168
among places like the FBI and the DEA,

1010
01:00:33,268 --> 01:00:36,508
where if you're telling somebody
who's been in the FBI for 30 years

1011
01:00:36,628 --> 01:00:40,488
that drugs are no longer a priority,
that's an existential threat to them.

1012
01:00:40,588 --> 01:00:43,008
That kind of takes away
their whole reason for existence.

1013
01:00:43,108 --> 01:00:47,248
You really have to think about
the danger of some of these drugs,

1014
01:00:47,348 --> 01:00:50,808
the severe danger of addiction,

1015
01:00:50,908 --> 01:00:53,808
the havoc that it, you know,
that it reaps on families

1016
01:00:53,908 --> 01:00:57,668
and, you know,
and children, and... careers.

1017
01:00:57,788 --> 01:01:01,168
And so to say that, you know,
we need to step back and liberalize,

1018
01:01:01,268 --> 01:01:04,368
well, but you... that's one
approach you can take,

1019
01:01:04,468 --> 01:01:06,348
but then you've got to look
at a cause and effect.

1020
01:01:06,468 --> 01:01:10,468
If we do this, what are the second
and third order effects?

1021
01:01:13,348 --> 01:01:15,428
The FBI, our federal government,
they're gonna go in

1022
01:01:15,548 --> 01:01:19,328
and they're shutting these places down.
But you know what? New ones just open up.

1023
01:01:19,428 --> 01:01:21,128
'Cause there's so much money to be made.

1024
01:01:21,228 --> 01:01:25,828
They'll continue to open up,
and it's just a dog chasing its tail.

1025
01:01:35,308 --> 01:01:39,068
We're a team, and we've been working
on this thing together right from the start.

1026
01:01:40,668 --> 01:01:45,328
The way it's affected me is in some ways
very much the same as it affects Lyn,

1027
01:01:45,428 --> 01:01:48,468
but I don't have to go out there
and talk to reporters.

1028
01:01:48,588 --> 01:01:51,508
And we've... we've kind
of set it up that way.

1029
01:01:51,628 --> 01:01:55,688
It's hard enough having your...
your loved one in prison,

1030
01:01:55,788 --> 01:02:00,128
but then the whole media thing is,
it definitely adds pressure.

1031
01:02:00,228 --> 01:02:03,288
I've known for a long time that the media

1032
01:02:03,388 --> 01:02:07,788
wasn't reporting the whole story,
that it was skewed.

1033
01:02:08,188 --> 01:02:14,188
I see what Lyn and I are doing
as a... as a pushback to that.

1034
01:02:15,988 --> 01:02:20,108
Ross has been in there a year
and he's avoided all violence,

1035
01:02:20,228 --> 01:02:22,728
even though it's been around him.

1036
01:02:22,828 --> 01:02:25,588
That has matured him for sure.

1037
01:02:26,188 --> 01:02:31,308
The fact that he's come out of this
unscathed so far, speaks volumes.

1038
01:02:31,748 --> 01:02:35,508
He seems serious.
You know, there's a lot at stake.

1039
01:02:35,628 --> 01:02:39,428
He's... feeling good
that we got the extension.

1040
01:02:39,548 --> 01:02:42,228
He had this mountain
of stuff to go through

1041
01:02:42,348 --> 01:02:45,548
and I felt like he was
running out the clock.

1042
01:02:45,788 --> 01:02:48,788
And now they have that extra
two months has made...

1043
01:02:48,908 --> 01:02:51,407
has been "essential" is the word he used.

1044
01:02:51,507 --> 01:02:53,967
And so I think he feels that, you know,

1045
01:02:54,067 --> 01:02:57,187
he's much more prepared and ready.

1046
01:02:57,387 --> 01:03:01,827
Yeah, he says he's ready for trial.
He's ready to go in there and win.

1047
01:03:03,947 --> 01:03:07,147
I have also matured in this last year.

1048
01:03:07,267 --> 01:03:12,067
Matured in my thinking
about ethics, politics.

1049
01:03:12,587 --> 01:03:17,747
When I became more and more aware
of what the drug war was doing,

1050
01:03:17,867 --> 01:03:19,527
the tragedy.

1051
01:03:19,627 --> 01:03:23,627
So many people have been
victimized by the drug war.

1052
01:03:23,747 --> 01:03:27,987
It's a giant mess
and it's a story that needs telling.

1053
01:03:28,107 --> 01:03:32,787
And we've got a pulpit,
in a way, to tell it from.

1054
01:03:32,907 --> 01:03:36,407
It's so weird to be doing
all this and it's...

1055
01:03:36,507 --> 01:03:38,727
distracting and it's challenging

1056
01:03:38,827 --> 01:03:41,767
and you wanna do the right thing,
and then it's all about Ross.

1057
01:03:41,867 --> 01:03:44,887
And then we go and we see him
and hug him and talk to him

1058
01:03:44,987 --> 01:03:48,207
and hold his hand
and it's just like Ross, you know?

1059
01:03:48,307 --> 01:03:52,307
It's such a disconnect, and...
it's just so hard to see him in there.

1060
01:03:58,227 --> 01:04:01,687
Being in the prison, visiting,
it's a very emotional experience,

1061
01:04:01,787 --> 01:04:05,127
because there are all these families there

1062
01:04:05,227 --> 01:04:09,007
and they get to see
their loved one one hour a week.

1063
01:04:09,107 --> 01:04:11,407
And so they're soaking each other up.

1064
01:04:11,507 --> 01:04:14,407
And you're in a room of 150 people,

1065
01:04:14,507 --> 01:04:16,967
sitting side-by-side, tight-packed.

1066
01:04:17,067 --> 01:04:20,627
And... there's just all this emotion

1067
01:04:20,747 --> 01:04:23,067
saturating the atmosphere.

1068
01:04:34,427 --> 01:04:37,907
The prisoners have segregated themselves.

1069
01:04:38,587 --> 01:04:42,027
But as loved ones coming to visit...

1070
01:04:42,147 --> 01:04:46,747
there's no sense of, segregation...
race at all.

1071
01:04:47,827 --> 01:04:52,227
We're just 150 people
whose hearts are breaking.

1072
01:05:07,747 --> 01:05:10,607
Of all the Snowden disclosures
that have come out to date,

1073
01:05:10,707 --> 01:05:13,487
the one that will have
the greatest long-term impact

1074
01:05:13,587 --> 01:05:16,727
is the revelation that the NSA
has been subverting

1075
01:05:16,827 --> 01:05:19,787
cryptographic standards and making
the Internet less secure.

1076
01:05:20,147 --> 01:05:22,107
That disclosure, those articles,

1077
01:05:22,227 --> 01:05:25,487
have radicalized
a new generation of cryptographers,

1078
01:05:25,587 --> 01:05:27,567
a new generation of computer scientists

1079
01:05:27,667 --> 01:05:30,927
who are now intent
upon building tools and services

1080
01:05:31,027 --> 01:05:34,307
that can withstand pervasive
government surveillance.

1081
01:05:34,507 --> 01:05:38,246
Did you see our wireless
from Barclay's Bank?

1082
01:05:38,346 --> 01:05:40,786
They like Bitcoin,
so they're supporting our work.

1083
01:05:40,906 --> 01:05:44,986
They're providing us
with free Wi-Fi from the bank.

1084
01:05:47,106 --> 01:05:49,266
In the fall of 2014,

1085
01:05:49,386 --> 01:05:51,606
as Ross was preparing for his trial,

1086
01:05:51,706 --> 01:05:54,066
a group of hackers,
programmers and activists

1087
01:05:54,186 --> 01:05:56,826
met in a squat in the center of London.

1088
01:05:57,066 --> 01:06:00,326
This gathering represented
the next wave of the dark net,

1089
01:06:00,426 --> 01:06:03,246
developing new and evolved
cryptographic tools

1090
01:06:03,346 --> 01:06:05,966
that would not be so easily shut down.

1091
01:06:06,066 --> 01:06:07,946
Open source is incredibly powerful.

1092
01:06:08,066 --> 01:06:11,566
Open source is responsible
for WikiLeaks, Wikipedia, Linux,

1093
01:06:11,666 --> 01:06:16,446
which runs all of our infrastructure,
for Firefox, for Bit Torrent,

1094
01:06:16,546 --> 01:06:19,666
for Bitcoin, for all of these...
for encryption,

1095
01:06:19,786 --> 01:06:23,306
for all of these real uses
of tech... not the yuppie...

1096
01:06:23,426 --> 01:06:26,726
Angry Birds or silly apps that...

1097
01:06:26,826 --> 01:06:28,426
these people, make, you know?

1098
01:06:28,546 --> 01:06:33,206
Open source is also an example
of how we can organize economically,

1099
01:06:33,306 --> 01:06:36,806
an example for the future,
to build the products we need

1100
01:06:36,906 --> 01:06:39,506
without needing proprietary industry,

1101
01:06:39,626 --> 01:06:42,326
without needing the points of control,

1102
01:06:42,426 --> 01:06:46,706
without needing masters
and slaves and babysitters.

1103
01:06:47,226 --> 01:06:51,086
It's not enough to build
privacy-preserving tools.

1104
01:06:51,186 --> 01:06:54,646
It's not enough to write
revolutionary research papers

1105
01:06:54,746 --> 01:06:58,066
and design amazing
cryptographic primitives.

1106
01:06:58,186 --> 01:07:00,806
You have to get them
into the hands of the users.

1107
01:07:00,906 --> 01:07:03,946
And I think in the future
what you'll find is that...

1108
01:07:04,066 --> 01:07:08,446
tools like Tor, tools like OTR,
like PGP, like Bitcoin

1109
01:07:08,546 --> 01:07:11,326
will be built into the services
and applications that you use

1110
01:07:11,426 --> 01:07:13,966
and you won't know they're there.

1111
01:07:14,066 --> 01:07:18,326
We want to empower the individual,
protect the small guy.

1112
01:07:18,426 --> 01:07:21,046
We have a mistrust of central authority.

1113
01:07:21,146 --> 01:07:23,346
We believe in freedom of information.

1114
01:07:23,466 --> 01:07:27,766
First of all, we have the centralized
drug marketplace, Silk Road.

1115
01:07:27,866 --> 01:07:30,026
Governments went in and shut that down.

1116
01:07:30,226 --> 01:07:33,606
And then up sprouted dozens of different,

1117
01:07:33,706 --> 01:07:35,786
centralized drug markets.

1118
01:07:35,906 --> 01:07:39,846
And in a game of whack a mole,
they shut down one and now there's dozens.

1119
01:07:39,946 --> 01:07:42,986
And now we're entering the realm
of decentralized drug markets,

1120
01:07:43,106 --> 01:07:45,966
with no central operator,
no central point of control.

1121
01:07:46,066 --> 01:07:47,586
What are they gonna do?

1122
01:07:50,266 --> 01:07:52,366
They're gonna continue
to do these kinds of things,

1123
01:07:52,466 --> 01:07:54,586
and even if it's a distributed network,

1124
01:07:54,906 --> 01:07:58,126
peer-to-peer is worked continuously by

1125
01:07:58,226 --> 01:08:00,186
the... state and local
law enforcement agencies.

1126
01:08:00,506 --> 01:08:03,066
And they arrest people every week.

1127
01:08:03,546 --> 01:08:06,346
On November 6, 2014,

1128
01:08:06,466 --> 01:08:08,586
law enforcement agencies around the world

1129
01:08:08,706 --> 01:08:12,006
launched a coordinated effort
called "Operation Onymous,"

1130
01:08:12,106 --> 01:08:16,406
seizing hundreds of dark net sites,
including the re-launch of the Silk Road.

1131
01:08:16,506 --> 01:08:19,266
Bruce Schneier, the cryptographer,
once said to me,

1132
01:08:19,626 --> 01:08:22,245
"You know, in this cat and mouse game,
the mice will win in the end,

1133
01:08:22,345 --> 01:08:26,985
but the cats will be well fed."
I think that that's the way to see it.

1134
01:08:27,945 --> 01:08:30,445
This game is going to continue forever.

1135
01:08:30,545 --> 01:08:33,665
[They're always reacting to us...]

1136
01:08:36,465 --> 01:08:37,325
[which is fine.]

1137
01:08:37,425 --> 01:08:39,645
[But once they're reacted
and they've shored up]

1138
01:08:39,745 --> 01:08:43,565
[and they've figured out "this is the new
defenses, you're not getting past this one."]

1139
01:08:43,665 --> 01:08:46,205
[We're just gonna sit there
and pick at it and get around it again]

1140
01:08:46,305 --> 01:08:49,625
[We're always gonna win.
We're always gonna win.]

1141
01:08:50,145 --> 01:08:51,925
There's a reason the Silk Road
was so powerful.

1142
01:08:52,025 --> 01:08:54,785
And I know the cryptos now are writing
the kind of automatic Silk Road,

1143
01:08:54,905 --> 01:08:55,985
and Amir helped do this.

1144
01:08:56,105 --> 01:08:59,425
This is now the peer-to-peer model where
there's no one individual administrator.

1145
01:08:59,785 --> 01:09:03,025
And seeing that as the weak point,
technically speaking, this is all correct.

1146
01:09:03,145 --> 01:09:05,425
But there's something kind of...

1147
01:09:05,545 --> 01:09:08,225
I don't want to make him a hero, like a...

1148
01:09:09,225 --> 01:09:11,305
I don't want to say that he's a hero.
But you know...

1149
01:09:11,425 --> 01:09:13,865
DPR recognized what was at stake

1150
01:09:13,985 --> 01:09:17,685
and he was willing to do the things that most
of the libertarians weren't willing to do,

1151
01:09:17,785 --> 01:09:19,925
because he was serious about...

1152
01:09:20,025 --> 01:09:22,825
I think what the Silk Road meant.

1153
01:09:24,025 --> 01:09:25,725
Three weeks before the trial,

1154
01:09:25,825 --> 01:09:29,085
the issue of the Murders-For-Hire
suddenly resurfaced.

1155
01:09:29,185 --> 01:09:32,165
The prosecution announced
that due to these allegations,

1156
01:09:32,265 --> 01:09:36,565
they would not allow Ross's defense to know
the identities of their witnesses.

1157
01:09:36,665 --> 01:09:39,405
The defense responded that using
these uncharged crimes

1158
01:09:39,505 --> 01:09:41,265
in these manner was prejudicial.

1159
01:09:42,225 --> 01:09:45,585
A hearing was called
to resolve the matter.

1160
01:09:48,185 --> 01:09:52,085
The judge ruled that some of the witnesses
won't be made available to the defense

1161
01:09:52,185 --> 01:09:54,465
until right before the trial.

1162
01:09:54,905 --> 01:09:59,025
It's based on her saying
that Ross might intimidate

1163
01:09:59,145 --> 01:10:03,305
or even murder people... from jail.

1164
01:10:11,945 --> 01:10:15,145
When all this first happened, I said,
well, it would still have been necessary

1165
01:10:15,265 --> 01:10:19,025
to say that, well, this man's a murderer
and he was only out for his own gain.

1166
01:10:19,145 --> 01:10:23,345
You know, he had... what do you call it,
a callous disregard for human life.

1167
01:10:23,465 --> 01:10:26,425
It's necessary to paint a figure
that way rather than to make him...

1168
01:10:26,545 --> 01:10:30,105
you know, a martyr of the war on drugs.
I think that's just good planning.

1169
01:10:30,425 --> 01:10:33,865
I think it's gonna be difficult...
to have a fair trial.

1170
01:10:33,985 --> 01:10:38,125
If you are innocent until proven guilty,
then with all the evidence

1171
01:10:38,225 --> 01:10:41,805
and all the stories that have been written,
I think it's gonna be really difficult to...

1172
01:10:41,905 --> 01:10:48,065
to find people who are not influenced
by any of this at all going into it.

1173
01:11:02,265 --> 01:11:05,925
The day before the trial,
Ross provided a written statement.

1174
01:11:06,025 --> 01:11:10,024
It was the closest anyone would
ever get to an actual interview.

1175
01:11:11,104 --> 01:11:16,704
[Throughout my adult life
I've tried to stay positive...]

1176
01:11:19,544 --> 01:11:24,664
[and it's even more important
to do that now.]

1177
01:11:27,304 --> 01:11:32,104
[I'm up against
a very powerful adversary.]

1178
01:11:35,624 --> 01:11:39,104
[You know, it's all too easy to think...]

1179
01:11:42,384 --> 01:11:45,664
[that things are hopeless and to give up.]

1180
01:11:52,224 --> 01:11:54,624
[But they're not.]

1181
01:11:56,424 --> 01:11:59,344
[They're not hopeless.]

1182
01:12:01,464 --> 01:12:04,064
[I'll never give up hope...]

1183
01:12:06,184 --> 01:12:10,144
[of being free again.]

1184
01:12:24,384 --> 01:12:27,324
Ross Ulbricht went on trial today.
A jury will decide a case that could impact

1185
01:12:27,424 --> 01:12:29,584
- the future of Internet privacy.
- Good evening to you.

1186
01:12:29,704 --> 01:12:33,324
Opening arguments taking place today,
and the first witness took the stand

1187
01:12:33,424 --> 01:12:35,784
and actually just got off
a few minutes ago...

1188
01:12:35,904 --> 01:12:39,184
A Homeland Security investigation
special agent

1189
01:12:39,304 --> 01:12:43,904
who testified saying...
"Thousands of envelopes of drugs..."

1190
01:12:46,104 --> 01:12:48,984
I think everyone was surprised
that Ross Ulbricht and his lawyers

1191
01:12:49,104 --> 01:12:51,884
took this to trial in the first place
instead of just taking a plea deal

1192
01:12:51,984 --> 01:12:55,124
like pretty much everyone expected.
And today, we saw why,

1193
01:12:55,224 --> 01:12:59,364
which is that they've actually got a pretty
compelling alternate narrative

1194
01:12:59,464 --> 01:13:01,904
of how this whole case has played out.

1195
01:13:02,024 --> 01:13:06,104
The story that Dratel is telling
that Ross did create the Silk Road,

1196
01:13:06,224 --> 01:13:08,044
which is an amazing admission
to begin with,

1197
01:13:08,144 --> 01:13:12,264
and that the real operator of the Silk Road,
the Dread Pirate Roberts, framed him.

1198
01:13:12,384 --> 01:13:15,884
It's a kind of theory
that I never heard posed before,

1199
01:13:15,984 --> 01:13:19,984
that instead of Ross being the Dread
Pirate Roberts, he was framed by him.

1200
01:13:20,864 --> 01:13:23,524
But in many ways, you know,
it's something I should've expected

1201
01:13:23,624 --> 01:13:27,024
because it's what the Dread Pirate Roberts
told me when I interviewed him

1202
01:13:27,144 --> 01:13:30,684
in July of 2013
that he didn't create the Silk Road,

1203
01:13:30,784 --> 01:13:35,344
that he had inherited it from its creator,
kind of like a business acquisition.

1204
01:13:35,624 --> 01:13:39,264
The FBI has told me that that
was Ross Ulbricht lying to me.

1205
01:13:39,384 --> 01:13:43,064
If it is a lie, it would require
just a lot of foresight and planning,

1206
01:13:43,184 --> 01:13:48,344
kind of like the... you know,
an amazing game of chess or something.

1207
01:13:49,304 --> 01:13:52,804
In the first days of the trial,
the prosecution presented evidence

1208
01:13:52,904 --> 01:13:57,603
that Ross kept a journal on his laptop
describing his involvement in the Silk Road

1209
01:13:57,703 --> 01:14:01,363
and that the Bitcoins seized from his
laptop came directly from the site.

1210
01:14:01,463 --> 01:14:04,523
While the defense would argue
that Ross abandoned the Silk Road

1211
01:14:04,623 --> 01:14:09,583
after creating it and that the journal
and the Bitcoin were planted on his laptop.

1212
01:14:09,703 --> 01:14:11,763
Andy, you interviewed
the Dread Pirate Roberts.

1213
01:14:11,863 --> 01:14:15,803
What's the evidence connecting
Dread Pirate Roberts to Ulbricht directly?

1214
01:14:15,903 --> 01:14:18,803
In the first couple of weeks
of this trial, which is ongoing now,

1215
01:14:18,903 --> 01:14:21,543
we've seen that the prosecution
has a very strong case.

1216
01:14:21,663 --> 01:14:24,203
Once they seized his laptop,
they found that he had kept a journal.

1217
01:14:24,303 --> 01:14:26,983
If this is, in fact, Ulbricht's journal.
His defense claims it's not.

1218
01:14:27,103 --> 01:14:29,643
He documented the administration
of this site for years.

1219
01:14:29,743 --> 01:14:31,343
He has a log book of daily activities.

1220
01:14:31,663 --> 01:14:34,303
So this is a really tight case
that's gonna be very difficult

1221
01:14:34,423 --> 01:14:36,523
for Ulbricht to squeeze out of it.

1222
01:14:36,623 --> 01:14:38,523
Underneath, in the deep web,

1223
01:14:38,623 --> 01:14:42,683
we have an area where this young man,
according to the government,

1224
01:14:42,783 --> 01:14:45,323
has made a decision that he's going to run

1225
01:14:45,423 --> 01:14:49,923
an illegal drug empire
and we need to stop you,

1226
01:14:50,023 --> 01:14:54,223
swift and certain prosecution,
and ultimate certain punishment.

1227
01:14:55,463 --> 01:14:59,423
As the trial continued, Dratel planned
to reveal the government's own evidence

1228
01:14:59,543 --> 01:15:03,623
showed they suspected multiple
people of running the Silk Road.

1229
01:15:03,823 --> 01:15:07,183
During his cross examination
of DHS agent Der-Yeghiayan,

1230
01:15:07,303 --> 01:15:11,203
Dratel was able to expose that the agent
had long suspected another person

1231
01:15:11,303 --> 01:15:13,263
to be the Dread Pirate Roberts,

1232
01:15:13,383 --> 01:15:16,303
going so far as to seek
a warrant for this suspect.

1233
01:15:16,903 --> 01:15:19,843
The protection protested
this entire line of questioning

1234
01:15:19,943 --> 01:15:21,683
on the grounds that it was hearsay.

1235
01:15:21,783 --> 01:15:25,383
The judge sided with the prosecution
and Dratel was no longer allowed

1236
01:15:25,503 --> 01:15:28,563
to question government witnesses
about alternate suspects

1237
01:15:28,663 --> 01:15:31,183
that came from
the government's own evidence.

1238
01:15:31,303 --> 01:15:34,243
When the time came
for Dratel to begin his defense,

1239
01:15:34,343 --> 01:15:36,163
he intended to use expert witnesses

1240
01:15:36,263 --> 01:15:40,383
to explain that the complex technology
behind encryption and cryptocurrency

1241
01:15:40,503 --> 01:15:44,963
made it difficult to prove that the journal
and the Bitcoin belonged to Ross.

1242
01:15:45,063 --> 01:15:47,323
The prosecution objected
to these witnesses,

1243
01:15:47,423 --> 01:15:49,983
claiming they should have been
made known earlier in the trial

1244
01:15:50,103 --> 01:15:53,643
and they were not necessary
for the jury's understanding of the case.

1245
01:15:53,743 --> 01:15:56,303
Once again, the judge sided
with the prosecution,

1246
01:15:56,423 --> 01:16:00,343
stating that this case did not require
specialized knowledge.

1247
01:16:00,703 --> 01:16:03,123
Without expert witnesses
and unable to pursue

1248
01:16:03,223 --> 01:16:05,923
the government's own evidence
of an alternate DPR,

1249
01:16:06,023 --> 01:16:09,763
Dratel's entire defense
was effectively blocked.

1250
01:16:09,863 --> 01:16:13,223
The trial ended abruptly the next day.

1251
01:16:19,023 --> 01:16:23,183
The trial of Ross Ulbricht
raised more questions than it answered.

1252
01:16:23,303 --> 01:16:27,643
Did we really know the full truth
of the Silk Road case?

1253
01:16:27,743 --> 01:16:30,243
Would this case set a precedent
for the warrantless search

1254
01:16:30,343 --> 01:16:32,723
of Americans' digital property?

1255
01:16:32,823 --> 01:16:36,543
Whatever the ultimate outcome,
it was clear that the fall of the Silk Road

1256
01:16:36,663 --> 01:16:39,462
was not the end of a chapter,
but the beginning.

1257
01:16:39,782 --> 01:16:44,002
And the movement to create tools
and services for online privacy

1258
01:16:44,102 --> 01:16:46,022
is stronger than ever.

1259
01:16:46,142 --> 01:16:48,282
The trial of Silk Road
mastermind Ross Ulbricht

1260
01:16:48,382 --> 01:16:51,362
concluded when a jury found him guilty
on seven different counts

1261
01:16:51,462 --> 01:16:55,242
that included three drug charges as well
as computer hacking, money laundering

1262
01:16:55,342 --> 01:16:59,182
and even a kingpin charge
of continuing a criminal enterprise.

1263
01:16:59,382 --> 01:17:01,922
Ulbricht faces a minimum
of 30 years behind bars,

1264
01:17:02,022 --> 01:17:04,222
but his defense plans
to appeal this decision.

1265
01:17:04,342 --> 01:17:06,242
Anyone here, all of us,

1266
01:17:06,342 --> 01:17:10,262
are going to be judged by things for which
there is no attribution in real life.

1267
01:17:10,502 --> 01:17:12,602
There's only attribution on the Internet

1268
01:17:12,702 --> 01:17:16,682
for things to be created, codified,
edited, moved, hacked.

1269
01:17:16,782 --> 01:17:19,382
- Was it a fair trial?
- No, I don't think so.

1270
01:17:21,582 --> 01:17:25,882
As the actual verdict was read,
the word "guilty" was said seven times.

1271
01:17:25,982 --> 01:17:29,802
Ross was just staring straight ahead.
I don't know what was on his face.

1272
01:17:29,902 --> 01:17:32,522
But afterwards he turned back
to look at his family

1273
01:17:32,622 --> 01:17:35,962
and he had this really heartbreaking
kind of stoic smile.

1274
01:17:36,062 --> 01:17:39,542
And he was just... he wasn't crying,
but he was just blinking...

1275
01:17:39,662 --> 01:17:41,922
like blinking hard.

1276
01:17:42,022 --> 01:17:43,742
And...

1277
01:17:44,542 --> 01:17:48,582
then as he was led away,
his mom said, "This is not the end."

1278
01:17:49,262 --> 01:17:52,302
You know, that was it.

1279
01:17:55,942 --> 01:17:58,782
The evidence against
Ulbricht was so powerful

1280
01:17:58,902 --> 01:18:02,762
and Dratel's strategy had been to try
to cross examine every government witness

1281
01:18:02,862 --> 01:18:06,182
and to pull out his alternative story
through that cross examination.

1282
01:18:06,302 --> 01:18:08,782
And when the judge essentially
shut that down and said

1283
01:18:08,902 --> 01:18:13,482
you have to limit your cross examination
to the scope of the government's...

1284
01:18:13,582 --> 01:18:19,542
initial questioning, that really
prevented him from telling any other story.

1285
01:18:22,662 --> 01:18:26,602
We have a much more informed perspective
than the rest of the world.

1286
01:18:26,702 --> 01:18:31,242
We have meetings that we've had with Josh
through the last year and three months...

1287
01:18:31,342 --> 01:18:32,582
regular meetings.

1288
01:18:32,702 --> 01:18:37,342
We know about how he felt like he might
win the case, in cross examination.

1289
01:18:38,022 --> 01:18:43,822
We know that the government, that his
witnesses were blocked from testifying.

1290
01:18:44,862 --> 01:18:49,982
We were in the courtroom
and we saw what happened and the...

1291
01:18:50,422 --> 01:18:54,142
the travesty, the... appalling,

1292
01:18:54,702 --> 01:18:56,942
obstruction of justice that happened.

1293
01:18:57,062 --> 01:19:01,662
There was 5,000 pages of government
evidence to do with one witness alone,

1294
01:19:01,782 --> 01:19:05,082
Jarod Der-Yeghiayan.
None of that was allowed.

1295
01:19:05,182 --> 01:19:08,822
5,000 pages, and it was dumped
on the defense 10 days before trial.

1296
01:19:08,942 --> 01:19:14,022
Another 2,500 pages for other witnesses was
dumped on the defense a week before trial.

1297
01:19:14,142 --> 01:19:18,862
And it was full of exculpatory evidence
favorable to Ross

1298
01:19:18,982 --> 01:19:21,122
that was not permitted to be used.

1299
01:19:21,222 --> 01:19:25,881
All this great, huge field of evidence

1300
01:19:25,981 --> 01:19:31,101
that came out in the 3,500 material,
a week before trial, that was...

1301
01:19:31,941 --> 01:19:34,081
that would help prove Ross's innocence

1302
01:19:34,181 --> 01:19:38,481
was excluded from being
brought out in the courtroom.

1303
01:19:38,581 --> 01:19:41,701
It would have been a whole different case.
This was the trial that didn't happen.

1304
01:19:41,821 --> 01:19:44,261
- The trial that didn't happen.
- It just didn't happen because it was...

1305
01:19:44,381 --> 01:19:49,421
only the prosecution's narrative
that we heard.

1306
01:19:52,541 --> 01:19:54,941
So then what about the hacking
of the Silk Road servers?

1307
01:19:55,061 --> 01:19:57,241
What about the precedent issue
of the case?

1308
01:19:57,341 --> 01:20:01,741
We didn't get that far. We didn't get
to even have that kind of public hearing

1309
01:20:01,861 --> 01:20:03,981
where the FBI has to say how they did it

1310
01:20:04,101 --> 01:20:07,281
and then we get to decide
whether that was legal or illegal.

1311
01:20:07,381 --> 01:20:10,341
That's maybe the most frustrating thing
about this case from a legal point of view

1312
01:20:10,461 --> 01:20:15,241
is that American law enforcement
hacked a foreign server, I believe,

1313
01:20:15,341 --> 01:20:17,721
and they didn't have a warrant

1314
01:20:17,821 --> 01:20:21,561
and they completely got away
with it and nobody's even...

1315
01:20:21,661 --> 01:20:24,761
nobody even gets to ask
any questions about it.

1316
01:20:24,861 --> 01:20:27,921
- How is Ross through all of this?
- He's an amazing guy.

1317
01:20:28,021 --> 01:20:31,141
You know, he's handling this
so much better than I would've.

1318
01:20:31,261 --> 01:20:34,701
I don't know how I could've taken
what he's put up with

1319
01:20:34,821 --> 01:20:38,581
and been subjected to
in this last year and three months.

1320
01:20:38,861 --> 01:20:41,301
And we pray that...

1321
01:20:41,861 --> 01:20:44,621
his spirit won't be crushed by this.

1322
01:20:46,301 --> 01:20:48,221
It seems that Ross conceived
of the Silk Road,

1323
01:20:48,341 --> 01:20:51,141
that he ran it for its
entire existence online.

1324
01:20:51,261 --> 01:20:54,081
I actually accept that
the government has proven that.

1325
01:20:54,181 --> 01:20:58,501
But Ross Ulbricht...
is a fascinating character.

1326
01:20:58,621 --> 01:21:00,601
He invented this brilliant thing.

1327
01:21:00,701 --> 01:21:03,161
He had principles.
He wasn't just a cyber-criminal.

1328
01:21:03,261 --> 01:21:07,641
He wasn't just a drug lord or a kingpin
as he's described in these charges.

1329
01:21:07,741 --> 01:21:10,121
He was also an idealistic guy.

1330
01:21:10,221 --> 01:21:13,861
And I'm gonna be conflicted
about both the...

1331
01:21:13,981 --> 01:21:16,581
kind of virtue of the Silk Road
and of Ross Ulbricht as a person,

1332
01:21:16,701 --> 01:21:18,281
I think, for the rest of my life.

1333
01:21:18,381 --> 01:21:21,301
I'm not gonna be able to come
to a conclusion about this.

1334
01:21:23,621 --> 01:21:26,521
[On March 25th, 2015,
a criminal complaint was filed...]

1335
01:21:26,621 --> 01:21:30,571
[against two former federal agents who
led the Silk Road task force in Baltimore.]

1336
01:21:30,671 --> 01:21:34,301
[Among other charges, these agents allegedly
stole over a million dollars in Bitcoin...]

1337
01:21:34,401 --> 01:21:37,761
[from the Silk Road and transferred them
to personal accounts.]

1338
01:21:38,281 --> 01:21:41,841
[The government did not allow
Ulbricht's defense...]

1339
01:21:41,941 --> 01:21:46,581
[to address this criminal investigation
during the trial.]

1340
01:21:47,931 --> 01:21:51,171
[On May 29th, 2015, Ross Ulbricht
was sentenced to life in prison...]

1341
01:21:51,291 --> 01:21:54,911
[without the possibility of parole.]

1342
01:22:02,311 --> 01:22:04,791
I don't know. Got any more questions
or should we wrap it up?

1343
01:22:04,911 --> 01:22:10,991
Yes. What are you going to do
over the next five years?

1344
01:22:11,551 --> 01:22:13,511
In one sentence.

1345
01:22:25,350 --> 01:22:28,510
I'm going to do a few things,
so one sentence isn't enough.

1346
01:22:28,630 --> 01:22:32,630
But, I wanna... I'm pretty sure I wanna
start a family in the next five years.

1347
01:22:32,750 --> 01:22:34,430
Nice. Okay.

1348
01:22:34,670 --> 01:22:36,430
And...

1349
01:22:36,550 --> 01:22:39,930
and... yeah, make more friends

1350
01:22:40,030 --> 01:22:42,730
and close people I love.

1351
01:22:42,830 --> 01:22:45,110
Yeah. Focus on...

1352
01:22:46,510 --> 01:22:48,630
being more connected to people.

1353
01:22:49,070 --> 01:22:52,950
And... 20 years?

1354
01:22:53,950 --> 01:22:56,110
20 years.

1355
01:22:58,110 --> 01:23:00,450
I wanna have had a...

1356
01:23:00,550 --> 01:23:04,630
substantial, positive impact
on the future of humanity by that time.

1357
01:23:04,750 --> 01:23:06,490
Do you think you're gonna live forever?

1358
01:23:06,590 --> 01:23:08,670
I think it's a possibility.

1359
01:23:09,310 --> 01:23:12,830
I honestly do. I think I might
live forever in some form

1360
01:23:12,950 --> 01:23:16,430
by that time with technologies
changing so fast.

1361
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:20,150
Cool. I hope I'm going there.

1362
01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:23,550
Sweet.

1363
01:23:24,690 --> 01:23:28,830
[Someday, we could be a shining beacon of
hope for the oppressed people of the world]

1364
01:23:28,930 --> 01:23:33,350
[just as so many oppressed and violated
souls have found refuge here already.]

1365
01:23:33,450 --> 01:23:35,650
[Will it happen overnight? No.]

1366
01:23:35,750 --> 01:23:38,530
[Will it happen in a life time?
I don't know.]

1367
01:23:38,630 --> 01:23:42,430
[Is it worth fighting for
until my last breath? Of course.]

1368
01:23:42,530 --> 01:23:46,748
[Once you've seen what's possible,
how can you do otherwise?]