1 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:21,960 I am writing a book about a serial killer. 2 00:00:22,040 --> 00:00:23,640 Seventy-four-year-old Samuel Little 3 00:00:23,720 --> 00:00:26,000 was sentenced today for killing three women 4 00:00:26,080 --> 00:00:28,600 in South Los Angeles in the 1980s. 5 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,880 But it always nagged at me because I knew 6 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:32,760 he was good for more murders. 7 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,400 Sam Little got away with this for so long 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:37,760 because most of his victims 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:39,720 were in marginalized populations: 10 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:42,920 women of color, drug addicts, prostitutes. 11 00:00:45,000 --> 00:00:47,040 Once she started visiting Sam in prison, 12 00:00:47,120 --> 00:00:49,200 that really awoke a lot 13 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:51,800 of different kind of demons in her. 14 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:54,720 Sam starts confessing to me 15 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:56,960 all of these cold cases, 16 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:58,720 all of these murders 17 00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:02,360 that had been long unsolved 18 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:05,040 throughout the United States. 19 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:07,600 Then it was like the floodgates opened. 20 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,680 Oh, Jesus. 21 00:01:09,760 --> 00:01:12,760 How many victims are there? 22 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:42,280 Right. 23 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:53,920 Why did she deserve it? 24 00:02:08,080 --> 00:02:09,920 When I started writing a book 25 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:13,280 about Samuel Little, 26 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:15,520 I-I had no idea 27 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:16,960 of the scope of it. 28 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:40,640 He is a vicious... 29 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:41,720 killer. 30 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,600 And I thought, 31 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:46,040 "I have to keep going with this." 32 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:47,320 Like, I'm gonna pursue this. 33 00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,920 It's about these victims. 34 00:02:50,000 --> 00:02:52,720 I wanna know how he got away with this for so long. 35 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:57,440 And I wanna understand 36 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,440 violence against women in this culture 37 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,640 and why it is so summarily dismissed. 38 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:12,320 The FBI calls Samuel Little 39 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:14,360 America's most prolific serial killer. 40 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:17,480 If you want me to tell my secrets to you, 41 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:19,760 come down here and look me in my eye 42 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:21,440 while I do. 43 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:24,160 My deal with the devil is, 44 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:28,200 "You will not die alone if you tell me the truth." 45 00:03:28,280 --> 00:03:29,520 I'm not gonna admit to those girls. 46 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:30,880 I don't believe you. 47 00:03:30,960 --> 00:03:33,400 So you tell me the truth right now. 48 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:35,560 Little strangled 93 victims 49 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,560 between 1970 and 2005. 50 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,280 He was tried and got off 51 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:41,760 again and again and again. 52 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:43,000 Investigators believe 53 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:44,800 that Samuel Little killed more people 54 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,680 than serial killers Ted Bundy, 55 00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:49,800 John Wayne Gacy, and Jeffrey Dahmer combined. 56 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:51,760 If you weren't locked up, 57 00:03:51,840 --> 00:03:54,320 I'd probably be dead by now. 58 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,320 You're right. 59 00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:01,240 You have a prepaid call from... 60 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:02,880 This is Sam. 61 00:04:02,960 --> 00:04:05,240 an inmate at the California State Prison, 62 00:04:05,320 --> 00:04:06,560 Los Angeles County, 63 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:08,360 Lancaster, California. 64 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:11,440 Mr. Sam. 65 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,480 I started visiting Sam Little in prison 66 00:04:16,560 --> 00:04:19,120 in August of 2018. 67 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,680 Now not only do I visit him every other weekend. 68 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,960 I also talk to him almost daily. 69 00:04:26,280 --> 00:04:28,400 And I record 70 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,720 all my phone conversations with him. 71 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:34,040 Are you ready for some questions? 72 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:46,440 You haven't asked. I'll trade you. 73 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:49,000 You give me one secret, I'll give you one. 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,360 I have access to this serial killer, 75 00:04:56,440 --> 00:04:59,600 and I hope that I could have something to offer 76 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:01,760 to law enforcement, 77 00:05:01,840 --> 00:05:03,760 but, you know, you don't walk in 78 00:05:03,840 --> 00:05:06,400 and start talking to a psychopath 79 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,160 and just be like, "So tell me about how you killed 'em." 80 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:11,480 You ask a question, 81 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,320 and then you listen really carefully, 82 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,680 and if you listen hard enough, 83 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:20,800 you can hear what they need you to be. 84 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:22,480 So tell me the truth. 85 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:23,760 If I was-- 86 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,840 No, Mr. Sam, you know I don't-I don't judge you. 87 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:32,240 I'm just here to listen. 88 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,040 I think of it as, like, 89 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,920 I'm his mommy; I'm his daughter. 90 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:52,520 And I'm his ultimate victim. 91 00:05:57,320 --> 00:06:01,080 He's an actor. He's a psychopath. 92 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,120 Every... interaction he has 93 00:06:07,200 --> 00:06:08,440 is transactional... 94 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,880 and he is two steps ahead of you 95 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,040 at any move. 96 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:32,600 I realize that it is a really strange relationship 97 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:36,440 for most people to hear, for them to understand, 98 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,200 but I'm in this privileged position 99 00:06:39,280 --> 00:06:42,920 that Sam Little wants to answer my questions. 100 00:06:43,000 --> 00:06:44,920 It serves him, 101 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:47,520 and it feels good to him. 102 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:51,440 So then how can I use that? 103 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,800 If I'm gonna investigate this, then what are the questions 104 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:58,760 I'm gonna ask about? 105 00:06:58,840 --> 00:07:02,480 Like, "Why did he get away with this for so long, 106 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:03,760 and how?" 107 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:07,280 I need to look at all the times 108 00:07:07,360 --> 00:07:09,240 he actually was caught 109 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:11,960 and find out what went wrong. 110 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:17,160 Can you walk me through what happened 111 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:19,080 with the Patricia Mount case? 112 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:21,240 Do you remember picking her up? 113 00:07:22,640 --> 00:07:24,560 I want the truth. 114 00:07:40,200 --> 00:07:43,160 Sam crawled the city's underbelly, 115 00:07:43,240 --> 00:07:45,680 drifting from bar to bar, 116 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,880 looking for weed and women, 117 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:50,480 preferably both. 118 00:08:04,840 --> 00:08:07,080 On September the 12th, 1982, 119 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:09,080 we were notified that 120 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,960 there had been a discovery of a female body 121 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,240 in the middle of absolutely nowhere 122 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,600 in a hayfield. 123 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:23,280 Found the body laying approximately in this area. 124 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:27,200 It was the body of a late 20s, 125 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,120 early 30s white female. 126 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,600 She was nude. She was laying on her back. 127 00:08:35,400 --> 00:08:38,440 She had defecation, you know, smeared on her body 128 00:08:38,520 --> 00:08:40,360 and on the clothes. 129 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,560 She had obvious bruising on the neck area. 130 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,520 You can almost see the handprints. 131 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:47,960 She was strangled to death. 132 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,240 I wonder if the original case file 133 00:08:54,320 --> 00:08:56,720 has got my notes still in it. 134 00:08:58,200 --> 00:08:59,800 There you go. That's her. 135 00:08:59,880 --> 00:09:01,760 That's the victim, Tricia Mount. 136 00:09:04,400 --> 00:09:07,160 Several witnesses that knew Patricia Mount 137 00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:10,320 had seen her at Willie Mae's tavern 138 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:12,280 the night before, 139 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:15,880 speaking to a Black male. 140 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:18,800 They described him as around 40s, 141 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,520 pretty good-sized fella, big hands. 142 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,800 Couple of the witnesses actually saw Patricia 143 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,160 get in his car. 144 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:30,960 It was a small station wagon, 145 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:32,680 tan or brown in color. 146 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:36,560 She was 26 years old. 147 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:37,880 She had a very low IQ, 148 00:09:37,960 --> 00:09:40,520 an IQ of around 40, from her paperwork. 149 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:41,960 Basically little girl 150 00:09:42,040 --> 00:09:44,360 because of her mental capabilities 151 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,200 just thrown aside. 152 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:48,040 You know, there's no way 153 00:09:48,120 --> 00:09:49,360 that should happen. 154 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,560 Sam was good at finding the weak link. 155 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,160 He could look at a room 156 00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:01,520 and see that somebody was lonely 157 00:10:01,600 --> 00:10:04,000 or see that somebody was hungry 158 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:06,040 or see that somebody 159 00:10:06,120 --> 00:10:08,760 really needed a fix, 160 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,720 and that's where he would go. 161 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,000 Right. 162 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:01,560 We're working the case, 163 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,000 but we're basically at a dead end. 164 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:06,400 We knew he wasn't from-from the Gainesville area. 165 00:11:06,480 --> 00:11:08,520 None of the witnesses ever saw him before. 166 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:10,720 We put out a BOLO, 167 00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:13,160 which is "be on the lookout for," 168 00:11:13,240 --> 00:11:15,720 to southeastern United States 169 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,320 with the description of a suspect 170 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:20,200 and-and a vehicle fitting the description 171 00:11:20,280 --> 00:11:21,440 we were looking for. 172 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:26,840 After Sam killed Patricia Mount, 173 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:31,640 he left Florida and went to Pascagoula, Mississippi, 174 00:11:31,720 --> 00:11:34,600 where he then killed Melinda LaPree. 175 00:11:36,680 --> 00:11:38,800 A few months later, he was arrested there 176 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,000 in Mississippi 177 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:42,960 for shoplifting. 178 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:46,240 They were able to connect 179 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,560 the brown Pinto station wagon 180 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:50,160 that he was driving 181 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,120 with a report about a murder in Florida, 182 00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,520 and law enforcement got in touch with each other. 183 00:11:58,600 --> 00:12:00,520 In early December, we get notified 184 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,560 that Pascagoula, Mississippi, has a person in custody 185 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,080 for the murder down there 186 00:12:05,160 --> 00:12:07,040 that matches the description of our murder, 187 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:09,760 and he matched the physical description 188 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,840 of our suspect. 189 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:15,040 And his name was Sam McDowell, 190 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,760 also identified as Sam Little. 191 00:12:19,000 --> 00:12:22,040 Several of the witness positively identified Sam 192 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:23,960 from a photographic lineup. 193 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:27,840 So we obtained a warrant for his arrest 194 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:29,920 for the murder of Pat Mount. 195 00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,000 We interviewed Sam McDowell. 196 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,080 You could almost sense the evil in the room. 197 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,040 We showed him a picture of the victim, 198 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:09,560 Patricia Mount. 199 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:12,800 He had a-a slight reaction. 200 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,120 He knew who we were talking about, 201 00:13:15,200 --> 00:13:19,760 but he adamantly denied ever seeing her, 202 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,440 and never was she in his car. 203 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:42,680 We knew that we were-- 204 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:45,440 basically had a circumstantial case. 205 00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:46,920 The only evidence we had 206 00:13:47,000 --> 00:13:49,240 was three witnesses 207 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:50,800 from Willie Mae's bar 208 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,120 identifying him out of a lineup. 209 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:54,240 We were concerned. 210 00:13:54,320 --> 00:13:56,720 We were hoping we'd get more evidence. 211 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:59,000 We found out then Sam Little 212 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,800 was arrested for shoplifting in Mississippi. 213 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,760 He had two individuals with him. 214 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:07,360 One, a teenage boy, Danny Beckless, 215 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:08,640 and an older Black woman 216 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,840 by the name of Orelia Dorsey. 217 00:14:11,920 --> 00:14:13,720 Orelia Jean Dorsey 218 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,800 was 27 years older than Sam. 219 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:22,560 He met her in a jailhouse in Cleveland. 220 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,720 She was a convicted shoplifter. 221 00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:27,480 She was his girlfriend, 222 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,200 and he traveled the country with her. 223 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:33,440 He called her Jean. 224 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:48,640 Wow. 225 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:04,120 Wow, it sounds like she really-she really took 226 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:05,720 good care of you. 227 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:08,360 Unfortunately, we couldn't sit down 228 00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:09,680 and interview her 229 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:12,040 because Orelia was no longer there. 230 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,880 But we subsequently interviewed Danny Beckless. 231 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,280 He was a young teenager, 232 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:24,160 approximately 16 years old. 233 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,560 Danny indicated to us that he had been traveling 234 00:15:26,640 --> 00:15:30,000 with Sam McDowell and Orelia Dorsey 235 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,440 for a period of time 236 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:33,520 and they had been staying 237 00:15:33,600 --> 00:15:35,600 in the-in the Gainesville area. 238 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:38,320 Okay. Where'd you stay? 239 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:40,280 We stayed at the Star Motel. 240 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,880 We pressed him if he could remember 241 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:43,320 the night of the homicide 242 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:46,000 in Gainesville months earlier 243 00:15:46,080 --> 00:15:47,080 of Patricia Mount. 244 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,560 He said he thought Sam left the motel 245 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,600 around seven o'clock that night. 246 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:57,880 Sam came home the next morning, right? 247 00:15:57,960 --> 00:15:58,800 Yes. 248 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:02,720 The next morning, Danny went out and found 249 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:04,240 brown matter, fecal matter, 250 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:06,040 on the back seat of the car. 251 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:10,440 And he said the car smelled. 252 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:14,480 That brown stuff you said was in the back seat... 253 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,600 Who cleaned out the car? 254 00:16:15,680 --> 00:16:17,080 Miss Dorsey. 255 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,320 Orelia had wiped it up and cleaned it 256 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,800 the best she could. 257 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:25,080 The police suspected that Sam, 258 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,320 he was killing at night, 259 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,640 and Orelia, 260 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:31,040 she would clean his car out 261 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,960 in the morning, and they would move on. 262 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:37,200 They would not stay anywhere 263 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:38,920 for more than three days. 264 00:16:53,320 --> 00:16:56,760 Danny also would talk about Sam bragging to him 265 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,000 about picking prostitutes up, and then he said, 266 00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:01,040 you know, he would get rid of them. 267 00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:04,640 Sam did mention one time 268 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:06,680 that he had hurt ladies. 269 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:07,960 He had told Beckless that. 270 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,360 Greg and I decided that we probably had 271 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:16,720 a serious serial killer on our hands. 272 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:20,680 Going into trial, 273 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:22,120 we felt pretty good at that point. 274 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,960 Then we start trying to locate Danny Beckless, 275 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:30,120 and... we can't find him. 276 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:34,320 Danny was gone. 277 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:36,360 This was a blow to the state's case 278 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,880 because without Beckless there, 279 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:42,240 we couldn't use anything that Beckless had told us 280 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,240 because it'd be considered hearsay 281 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,360 and the judge would not allow it. 282 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,840 He never for a second thought he would be convicted. 283 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:09,480 Samuel Little's victims were ignored 284 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:11,680 for all of these years 285 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:13,640 in large part because 286 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:16,160 they were in marginalized populations. 287 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,840 Pat Mount had a lot of trouble in her life. 288 00:18:20,920 --> 00:18:23,920 She was mentally retarded. She was an alcoholic. 289 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:26,160 She hung around the bars, 290 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:27,520 was known to get drunk 291 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:29,960 and leave with different men. 292 00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:33,040 All this was brought up during the trial. 293 00:18:33,120 --> 00:18:35,400 And I-I felt a lot of people, 294 00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:37,200 including the jury, felt that she was 295 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,640 less of a person 296 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,600 rather than being a victim of a homicide, 297 00:18:41,680 --> 00:18:45,040 that she was almost asking for it. 298 00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:46,800 I feel personally 299 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:48,560 that if she'd have been 300 00:18:48,640 --> 00:18:51,040 a University of Florida student, 301 00:18:51,120 --> 00:18:54,120 a lot different trial would've been conducted. 302 00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:58,880 We disseminated the information. 303 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:00,160 We felt he was a serial killer, 304 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:02,160 and we put it out nationwide. 305 00:19:02,240 --> 00:19:04,640 That's all we could do is warn people. 306 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,920 You throw a life away, basically, 307 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:09,760 a life, basically, of a child, 308 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:12,240 even though she was 26 years old. 309 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,200 And you feel sorry for someone, 310 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,040 that you couldn't do them justice to help them. 311 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:20,400 I just felt like somehow, 312 00:19:20,480 --> 00:19:23,040 we should've been able to keep him in jail. 313 00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:27,280 There was such a miscarriage of justice. 314 00:19:27,360 --> 00:19:31,040 They had him again and again. 315 00:19:31,120 --> 00:19:35,080 When I read his rap sheet, I was shocked. 316 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:36,960 He served far less time 317 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,000 for rape, assault, and murder 318 00:19:40,080 --> 00:19:43,720 than he did for his first breaking and entry charge 319 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,960 when he was 16 years old. 320 00:20:09,360 --> 00:20:11,840 He went to the Ohio State Reformatory 321 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:13,520 at the age of 16. 322 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:17,120 Yeah. 323 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,240 And that was where he learned to box. 324 00:20:44,480 --> 00:20:46,560 I knew that I wanted to write 325 00:20:46,640 --> 00:20:48,960 a more extensive piece 326 00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:51,640 about Sam Little, and, you know, 327 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:56,440 a big piece of his identity is boxing. 328 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,880 I felt that in order to understand him, 329 00:20:59,960 --> 00:21:03,120 I would have to go and just give it a try. 330 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:05,080 Seven, eight. 331 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:08,360 And boxing has given me a perspective 332 00:21:08,440 --> 00:21:12,000 on the Sam Little story in many ways. 333 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:16,200 What were the nicknames they called you? 334 00:21:33,240 --> 00:21:36,880 Sam was the middleweight champion 335 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,000 of the Ohio State Reformatory, 336 00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:43,400 and boxing culture in the prisons in the '60s 337 00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:47,840 was actually a funnel into professional boxing. 338 00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,920 So Sam Little is 24 339 00:21:51,000 --> 00:21:53,120 when he gets out of the reformatory. 340 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,720 He goes and fights an amateur fight 341 00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:02,160 in Cleveland. 342 00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:04,240 He has all these people in his corner, 343 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:05,760 saying hang back, 344 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:07,920 except he's a KO fighter. 345 00:22:09,240 --> 00:22:12,600 He is a powerhouse, right, 346 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:14,760 and they're saying hang back, hang back, 347 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:17,120 and he got his lip split, 348 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,880 and he lost by points. 349 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:25,760 He put his boxing gloves in the trash 350 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:28,800 and said, "I'm never fighting again." 351 00:22:28,880 --> 00:22:31,600 He took that rage somewhere else. 352 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,600 Why don't you tell me why you stopped boxing? 353 00:22:43,560 --> 00:22:45,840 I mean, I feel like that's really interesting, 354 00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:47,400 Sam, for you to say that, 355 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,440 because you are actually a killer. 356 00:22:51,360 --> 00:22:53,160 But you have killed people. 357 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,280 So you did have a killer instinct. 358 00:22:55,360 --> 00:22:56,640 I-I-- 359 00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:11,640 Right. 360 00:23:13,040 --> 00:23:17,960 I was not calculating in the kind of emotional toll 361 00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:20,800 talking to the psychopath would take. 362 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,920 I'm pretty angry. 363 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:26,920 I mean, I don't, like, function 364 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,480 in the world as an angry person, 365 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,280 but if I think hard enough 366 00:23:31,360 --> 00:23:33,920 about the things that I've experienced 367 00:23:34,000 --> 00:23:37,800 and also the things that I'm researching 368 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:41,640 with the Sam Little story and these victims, 369 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:44,160 I can get pretty angry. 370 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:48,000 I'm somebody who has experienced 371 00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:48,960 domestic abuse. 372 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,240 I am somebody who has done 373 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:53,440 sex work in my life. 374 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:55,640 I'm someone who has certainly done 375 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:57,400 plenty of drugs. 376 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:02,040 I have a post-traumatic stress disorder diagnosis. 377 00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:06,000 Boxing allows me to lean into the pain. 378 00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,080 There are many ways 379 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,120 of dealing with trauma: 380 00:24:18,200 --> 00:24:20,160 by running away, 381 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:23,000 by being addicted, 382 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,000 and... 383 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,920 I think that that is 384 00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:32,160 a large part of how Sam 385 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,840 chose his victims. 386 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:36,920 He was a predator. 387 00:24:37,000 --> 00:24:38,200 He could walk in a room 388 00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:41,160 and see who was the easiest prey. 389 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,120 They weren't all prostitutes. 390 00:25:24,120 --> 00:25:25,200 You know, you don't think 391 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:26,640 things like that are gonna happen to you 392 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,080 'cause I wasn't that person. 393 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,120 I just tried some risky stuff. 394 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:34,760 My name is Laurie Barros. 395 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,240 I'm one of the few surviving victims 396 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:39,560 of Samuel McDowell Little. 397 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,600 It's written all over you somehow or another, 398 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:47,240 how you carry yourself, 399 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:48,480 that you don't care about yourself, 400 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:49,600 you don't respect yourself, 401 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,720 you have no confidence. 402 00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,480 And in--that was true. I had none. 403 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,520 Remember, pick the ones 404 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:01,600 no one will notice are gone. 405 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,760 Remember, don't leave them alive. 406 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,840 Remember, don't get caught. 407 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,600 Remember, if the above fails, 408 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:12,000 get a lawyer. 409 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,640 Remember, deny, deny, deny. 410 00:26:29,800 --> 00:26:31,760 That was Laurie and Tonya? 411 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,480 That was the two women in San Diego? 412 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:35,840 That case? 413 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:44,360 I was going through a divorce 414 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:47,280 and, you know, from an abusive husband, 415 00:26:47,360 --> 00:26:48,520 wasn't caring very much 416 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,080 about how I was handling my life, 417 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,200 and that night, I got dressed up. 418 00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:55,880 I was bored. I was lonesome. 419 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:57,720 And my friend 420 00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,760 had a meth dealer that lived downtown. 421 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,920 I thought I would go see if he was home, 422 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,280 do a few lines, right? 423 00:27:09,200 --> 00:27:11,480 So I had gotten out of my car, 424 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:13,720 but I don't think I made it to the end of the block. 425 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,760 I remember getting the feeling-- 426 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:23,360 you know how you get a feeling somebody's following you? 427 00:27:26,280 --> 00:27:28,480 I instantly just froze up 428 00:27:28,560 --> 00:27:31,000 and got really scared. 429 00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:33,160 I thought, "Don't act like you're scared. 430 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,120 Don't act like you're scared." 431 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:39,480 He was-he was behind me now, 432 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,000 kind of got me in a chokehold, 433 00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:44,480 shoved me into his car. 434 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:47,240 It seemed like he drove around aimlessly 435 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,960 for a little bit, 436 00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,920 and driving up this dirt road, 437 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,440 it was pitch-black, just emptiness, 438 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:57,200 and I remember he pulled up there 439 00:27:57,280 --> 00:27:59,640 and turned the car off. 440 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:02,960 I just assumed, "I'm gonna-I'm gonna get raped. 441 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:04,720 Prepare yourself." 442 00:28:06,040 --> 00:28:09,280 And... 443 00:28:09,360 --> 00:28:11,920 he... 444 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,840 turned around and pretty much took me by the neck 445 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:17,680 and pushed me in the back seat, 446 00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,600 right over the seat. 447 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:25,680 He--like this. He had his f-- 448 00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:27,880 just pressing down. 449 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,640 And my--his hands are around my neck. 450 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,840 His thumbs are on those hyoid bones, 451 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,760 and he kept pressing harder. 452 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,280 He had told me to swallow, 453 00:28:37,360 --> 00:28:39,400 says, "I love it when you swallow." 454 00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:43,760 And I went unconscious. 455 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,560 And I remember coming back to consciousness. 456 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,360 I know he thought I was dead, 457 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,440 and I knew that because I played dead. 458 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:12,040 I remember kind of talking to God 459 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:16,240 and saying, "I'm sorry. I did this to myself." 460 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,280 I was so ashamed. 461 00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:23,880 As survivors of violence, 462 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:25,800 one of the most difficult things 463 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:29,160 is that we often blame ourselves. 464 00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,720 We're working with a set of cultural assumptions 465 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,560 that cause us 466 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:38,080 to internalize. 467 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:51,000 I grew up with a kind of insatiable curiosity 468 00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:54,760 that has gotten me into a lot of trouble. 469 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,800 But I don't think that any of that 470 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,800 really translated into some of my more... 471 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:02,840 self-destructive behaviors 472 00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,280 until I had an experience at summer camp 473 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:08,760 when I was 12 years old, 474 00:30:08,840 --> 00:30:13,560 when I had a relationship with a much older counselor. 475 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,000 Him. 476 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:18,920 And he was 21. 477 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,520 We got caught, and he got fired, 478 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,560 and I was publicly humiliated 479 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,800 and then went from being, you know, 480 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:30,760 this awkward... 481 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,840 preteen, really, 482 00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:39,160 you know, to being the town slut, basically. 483 00:30:40,880 --> 00:30:43,320 You know? I mean, what-what would you do 484 00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:45,120 if a 21-year-old 485 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:47,160 touched your 12-year-old daughter? 486 00:30:49,600 --> 00:30:51,400 I don't know what I would do, 487 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,120 but I... 488 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,320 w-wouldn't do what my parents did, 489 00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,160 and I wouldn't do what the camp directors did, 490 00:30:59,240 --> 00:31:01,040 which was, you know, blame me. 491 00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,880 I was publicly humiliated. 492 00:31:04,960 --> 00:31:07,600 You know, the general... 493 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:11,120 opinion was that I seduced him 494 00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:15,600 and, you know, caused him to lose his job, 495 00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:19,920 and my whole life changed after that. 496 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,760 I started to internalize 497 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,000 those kind of ideas about myself. 498 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:29,440 You know, I was bad, I was wrong, 499 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,080 I was shameful, 500 00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:32,840 and, you know, 501 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:37,480 and I started to act out in self-destructive ways. 502 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,000 I was anorexic. I was a cutter. 503 00:31:41,080 --> 00:31:45,480 I still carry those scars physically. 504 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,800 It was a formative experience, 505 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,000 changed my life. 506 00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:53,880 The experience of not being believed, 507 00:31:53,960 --> 00:31:56,760 being blamed, it changed 508 00:31:56,840 --> 00:32:00,960 my idea about myself, 509 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,760 and I can look at that experience 510 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:07,440 and see that that was where 511 00:32:07,520 --> 00:32:09,520 my more self-destructive behaviors 512 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,720 started to manifest. 513 00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:20,800 I feel connected with these victims 514 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,880 because it could've been me any night of the week 515 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,400 for a very long time in my life. 516 00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:34,840 It's probably been about 25, 26 years 517 00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:39,120 since I've been back here to this site. 518 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,000 When Sam Little was pushing me out of the car, 519 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:47,600 I know he thought I was dead. 520 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,920 I was laying in dirt, but there was trash around me. 521 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,960 I was just kind of sprawled out on my back, 522 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,320 and I didn't move a muscle. 523 00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:01,640 The idea that I'm laying in trash 524 00:33:01,720 --> 00:33:03,360 has never left me, 525 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:05,560 that image and just kind of... 526 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,320 such a metaphor for how I've kind of felt 527 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:10,040 so much of my life. 528 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,080 Yeah, 'cause you were. 529 00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,080 But you thought she was dead. 530 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:46,880 We're going into Logan Heights now, 531 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,320 and, you know, back in 1984, when I joined 532 00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,080 the San Diego Police Department, 533 00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,000 this was kind of the start of the gang area. 534 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,120 Thirty-Second Street, 535 00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:58,720 all the girls who were prostituting 536 00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:00,720 would be along the street here. 537 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:04,560 They're just trying to get by. 538 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:08,160 My name's Wayne Spees, 539 00:34:08,240 --> 00:34:09,600 and I'm a detective sergeant 540 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,000 retired from San Diego Police Department. 541 00:34:15,440 --> 00:34:18,400 On October 25th, I was working night watch. 542 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:23,640 I was probably a week in in my phase training, 543 00:34:23,720 --> 00:34:26,800 and my training officer was Lou Tamani. 544 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:28,360 In lineup that day, 545 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,960 Lou shows me this flyer. 546 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,400 We call them a BOLO, a "be on the lookout." 547 00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:34,800 So this is the BOLO 548 00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,600 that we received in lineup that night. 549 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,640 It says that this guy 550 00:34:38,720 --> 00:34:40,120 had attacked a woman, 551 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,280 that he drove her to a-a location, 552 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,120 and raped her and strangled her, 553 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,000 and then he threw her out of the car, 554 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:49,760 thinking probably she was dead, 555 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:51,960 and then, you know, left her there. 556 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:56,360 The victim is 22-year-old Laurie Barros. 557 00:34:57,720 --> 00:34:59,080 She gave a really good description 558 00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:01,840 of the car and of our suspect: 559 00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:03,120 a Black male, 560 00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:06,240 40 to 45 years old, six foot one, 561 00:35:06,320 --> 00:35:09,280 230 to 240 pounds, 562 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,280 He had a gold pinkie ring with two diamonds. 563 00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:13,560 The vehicle he was driving 564 00:35:13,640 --> 00:35:17,120 was a black two-door large American-made car. 565 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:20,720 It had three foam dice hanging from the rearview mirror. 566 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,440 And now we're out a month later, 567 00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:32,840 patrolling the-the area. 568 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,240 That night, 569 00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,080 just before five in the morning, 570 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:39,400 the sun hasn't come up yet. 571 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,720 Radio slows down, and... 572 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:43,280 my partner Lou's telling me 573 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,520 about this area where this woman was attacked, 574 00:35:46,600 --> 00:35:49,880 and Lou says to take the right turn off of 36th. 575 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:53,800 It's a dead-end street, and then it goes 576 00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:56,080 into a dirt lot 577 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,480 with just these piles of trash. 578 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:03,440 And we want to sneak up on anybody 579 00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,400 so we don't wanna alert them with our lights on, 580 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:06,680 so we turn our lights out. 581 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:12,160 We can see, you know, the outline 582 00:36:12,240 --> 00:36:14,640 of-of a car up in front of us. 583 00:36:16,080 --> 00:36:18,080 We said, "Okay, closer, closer, closer," 584 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:20,320 and then he said, "When I say so, 585 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:21,680 "turn the spotlights on 586 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:23,800 and turn the headlights on, high beams." 587 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:27,960 And as we're pulling up, he tells me. 588 00:36:28,040 --> 00:36:30,360 He says, "All right, light them up." 589 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:34,520 And that's when we can see, 590 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:36,040 you know, the-the car. 591 00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,680 We see it's the car that matches this description. 592 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,120 It's a large black American-made car. 593 00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:44,560 It's a T-bird. 594 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,320 And we see movement in the back seat, 595 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:49,320 and we see a head, you know, pop up, 596 00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:52,160 and then the door opens on the passenger side, 597 00:36:52,240 --> 00:36:53,720 and he jumps out of the car. 598 00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,600 He gets out, and he looks directly at us, 599 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:06,680 and I notice he's-he's pulling his pants up. 600 00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,880 He's zipping up his pants. 601 00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:11,680 So I--in a very firm voice, I say, 602 00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:13,560 "Get over here. I need to talk to you." 603 00:37:13,640 --> 00:37:15,360 As he's approaching me, I have my light, 604 00:37:15,440 --> 00:37:16,880 my flashlight, on him, 605 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:18,600 and as I put the light on his face, 606 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,720 I can see the scratches on his throat, 607 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:22,480 and they're fresh; they're-they're bleeding. 608 00:37:22,560 --> 00:37:23,800 You know, and he has a-a clump 609 00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:26,400 of, like, mucus-y blood on his shirt. 610 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,400 And then he looks down at my gun, 611 00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:30,720 and I just told him; I said, 612 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:33,200 you know, "Don't do anything stupid." 613 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:36,240 He identified himself to me as Samuel McDowell. 614 00:37:38,640 --> 00:37:39,840 So I put him in the back of the car. 615 00:37:39,920 --> 00:37:41,360 He's handcuffed. He's not going anywhere. 616 00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:42,480 We got him. 617 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,280 And now I make my way up 618 00:37:44,360 --> 00:37:46,240 to the back seat of the T-bird. 619 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,040 When I... got up to the car, 620 00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,920 I was on the passenger side, 621 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:55,560 and I can see a woman back there, 622 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:56,760 and she's naked, 623 00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,280 and she's shoved down behind the driver's seat 624 00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:00,560 on the floor, 625 00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,360 and her hips and her-and her legs 626 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,960 are-are up on the seat, spread. 627 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,240 She had, you know, a lot of redness 628 00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:09,560 and bruising around her-her neck. 629 00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:11,280 There was blood coming from her nose 630 00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:14,400 and from her mouth, like she'd been punched. 631 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:15,920 Her eyes were rolled back in her head, 632 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:18,800 and it wasn't till the-- she started gurgling 633 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,280 that I realized that she's still alive. 634 00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,000 And Lou said, "You're safe. I'm a police officer." 635 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:29,480 And then that's when she said, 636 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:31,800 you know, "He raped me. He raped me." 637 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:33,360 To-that was Tonya, 638 00:38:33,440 --> 00:38:35,280 when you got caught in the act? 639 00:38:58,520 --> 00:38:59,720 The victim was being treated 640 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:01,720 in the hospital. 641 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:04,400 We learned her name was Tonya Jackson. 642 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:06,320 She says she met Samuel McDowell 643 00:39:06,400 --> 00:39:08,480 in a bar downtown, 644 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:11,880 and he offered her money for sex, and she agreed, 645 00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,200 and then he drove her to that location 646 00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,600 where she was attacked. 647 00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,400 Now he's in the back seat, strangling this woman. 648 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:23,240 She was moments away from death. 649 00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:25,480 No doubt in my mind that, you know, 650 00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,760 he would've killed her. 651 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:29,760 So the charges at that point 652 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,960 were the kidnap, 653 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:33,320 the rape, 654 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,360 and then the attempted murder. 655 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:52,120 He said, "Yeah, I'll talk. 656 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:53,360 I'll tell you exactly what happened." 657 00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:55,040 You know, to me, he says, 658 00:39:55,120 --> 00:39:56,960 "That-that doctor's exam's 659 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,160 not gonna show any rape," 660 00:39:59,240 --> 00:40:00,680 and he said, "The only thing that's gonna show 661 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,280 is where my hands were around her neck." 662 00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,560 And I remember thinking to myself, 663 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:09,880 "Wow, that's a pretty incriminating statement." 664 00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,120 I took my notepad out, 665 00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:12,720 and I put quotation marks, you know, 666 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,080 and I wrote that down. 667 00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:15,640 And then he said, 668 00:40:15,720 --> 00:40:17,200 "I just kicked the shit out of her." 669 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:18,960 "That bitch deserved it." 670 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:20,520 He goes, "I should've killed that whore." 671 00:40:36,360 --> 00:40:39,280 So once we get him down to the station, 672 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:41,840 we hand him off to the sex crimes detective 673 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,000 who handled the first case, Laurie Barros. 674 00:40:45,080 --> 00:40:47,040 He then brings Laurie down 675 00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:51,040 and is going to have her identify, if she can, 676 00:40:51,120 --> 00:40:52,720 Sam Little in a lineup. 677 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:01,560 And I picked him out in a matter of seconds. 678 00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,280 And just to let him know that I was on this side 679 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,560 of the-the glass... 680 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:11,840 I made him repeat the words 681 00:41:11,920 --> 00:41:14,680 that I knew would probably... 682 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,240 make him a little anxious, which was, 683 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,200 "Swallow for me. I love it when you swallow." 684 00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:22,520 Made him say that... 685 00:41:25,200 --> 00:41:29,920 'cause I was looking for him to-to-to be unnerved by it. 686 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,400 And... I fell to my knees 687 00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:35,600 and just broke, 688 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:37,720 just kind of crumbled. 689 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:39,080 I knew that was him. 690 00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,160 So now we know we have him 691 00:41:43,240 --> 00:41:45,360 for two cases. 692 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:48,920 Samuel McDowell was charged with both the attacks 693 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,760 on Laurie Barros and Tonya Jackson. 694 00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,320 It's what we call a slam dunk. 695 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:57,920 I mean, you caught the man in the act. 696 00:42:00,240 --> 00:42:01,600 So in my mind, 697 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,080 this guy's going away for a long time, 698 00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,440 and we got a really dangerous predator 699 00:42:05,520 --> 00:42:06,920 off the street. 700 00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:11,320 Samuel McDowell, serial murderer, rapist, 701 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,520 torturer, strangler. 702 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:16,720 Let's see what we got here. 703 00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,040 These are notes I haven't seen 704 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,240 in decades... 705 00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:23,720 on this case. 706 00:42:23,800 --> 00:42:24,920 I'm Gary Rempel. 707 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:26,160 I'm a retired district attorney 708 00:42:26,240 --> 00:42:27,720 for San Diego County. 709 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:31,960 I tried the 1985 case of Samuel Little, 710 00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,960 also known as McDowell, 711 00:42:35,040 --> 00:42:37,200 in which he raped and assaulted 712 00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:39,520 and tried to strangle two women. 713 00:42:39,600 --> 00:42:42,040 We had a solid identification. 714 00:42:42,120 --> 00:42:44,960 The first one had ended 715 00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,240 with the victim being left for dead 716 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:49,680 in a trash heap, and in the second one, 717 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:50,920 police officer happened on the scene 718 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,040 and actually interrupted this man 719 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,280 as he was strangling his victim 720 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,120 in the back seat of his car. 721 00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:06,520 There was no doubt in my mind I had the right guy. 722 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:08,720 So one of the first things I did 723 00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,160 was look at Sam Little's rap sheet. 724 00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:16,160 Many, many arrests 725 00:43:16,240 --> 00:43:18,960 but not much time served. 726 00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,640 Violent assault, rape, attempted murder. 727 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:25,240 In Mississippi, attempted murder, first degree. 728 00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:29,320 Gainesville, Florida, acquitted. 729 00:43:29,400 --> 00:43:32,280 An acquittal's kind of unusual. 730 00:43:32,360 --> 00:43:33,760 That was a bit of a red flag. 731 00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:39,920 So having all these facts in mind 732 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:41,480 I began to prepare my case, 733 00:43:41,560 --> 00:43:43,480 and the first thing I did, of course, 734 00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:44,720 would be to interview the victims. 735 00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,760 The first victim I interviewed is Tonya Jackson, 736 00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:50,760 who was saved by the officer. 737 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:01,600 Well, I mean, it-it is violent. 738 00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:03,440 It's violent to strangle someone, 739 00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:04,560 right, Mr. Sam? 740 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:08,640 Tonya Jackson 741 00:44:08,720 --> 00:44:10,520 openly admitted she was a prostitute. 742 00:44:10,600 --> 00:44:12,320 She denied there had been 743 00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:14,680 any conflict over a fee or any other reason 744 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,120 for him to attack her 745 00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:18,520 other than for his own pleasure. 746 00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:21,760 But if the cop hadn't come along 747 00:44:21,840 --> 00:44:24,080 and interrupted the-the crime in the act, 748 00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,040 she wouldn't have made a very good witness on the stand. 749 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:27,520 She just was, 750 00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,480 you know, poorly educated, not a strong speaker, 751 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,000 and appeared to be a person of few words. 752 00:44:34,760 --> 00:44:37,080 But then I interviewed the second witness, 753 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:38,920 Laurie Barros. 754 00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:43,800 When I had my first meeting 755 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:45,720 with DDA Gary Rempel, 756 00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:47,520 I can remember sitting down in there 757 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:49,160 and just b-trembling. 758 00:44:54,920 --> 00:44:57,200 I gave him all the gory details 759 00:44:57,280 --> 00:44:59,280 of what happened to me. 760 00:45:04,480 --> 00:45:06,760 So I heard her story, and she really seemed 761 00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,400 to make an excellent witness. 762 00:45:09,480 --> 00:45:12,280 She was a very attractive lady, 763 00:45:12,360 --> 00:45:15,520 dressed modestly but nicely. 764 00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:18,480 I thought there'd be no problems in the case. 765 00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,040 The only thing was the timing. 766 00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,120 What's she doing out in the street 767 00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:28,720 at 11:30 in downtown San Diego at that time of night? 768 00:45:28,800 --> 00:45:31,880 So I just wanted to know why she was there. 769 00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,840 So I brought her in for further questioning. 770 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:38,200 I knew something was wrong, 771 00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,760 and he told me; he said, 772 00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:42,360 "Yeah, we-we had to pull your record, you know? 773 00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:44,360 It's what we do." 774 00:45:46,480 --> 00:45:48,080 I got arrested a couple times, 775 00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:49,920 and--you know, with a group of girls 776 00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:51,640 for prostitution. 777 00:45:51,720 --> 00:45:54,040 Being arrested was 778 00:45:54,120 --> 00:45:56,560 horribly humiliating 779 00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,000 and definitely a wake-up call, 780 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,240 going, "What are you doing?" 781 00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,840 She came clean. I said, "That-that's okay. 782 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:07,240 He still didn't have the right to do what he did." 783 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:09,560 But now I had information 784 00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:11,320 that affected her credibility 785 00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:13,240 as a witness and as a victim. 786 00:46:20,720 --> 00:46:23,320 When I testified at trial, 787 00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:26,000 I was an absolute nervous wreck. 788 00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:29,840 Felt like all the pressure was on me 789 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,360 to make sure that the jury would believe me. 790 00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,160 Both my victims did a pretty good job. 791 00:46:41,240 --> 00:46:44,080 They shared their horror. 792 00:46:46,240 --> 00:46:48,600 Then it was the defense attorney. 793 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:53,240 Little took the stand. He kept his mild demeanor. 794 00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:56,040 He testified that as to Laurie Barros, 795 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:57,960 he knew nothing about that case; 796 00:46:58,040 --> 00:46:59,960 he had nothing to do with that case; 797 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,080 he in fact was with a friend 798 00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:03,680 that he travels with, an older lady 799 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:05,440 that he takes care of, 800 00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:07,480 a lady living on social security 801 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,320 named Jean. 802 00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,120 Didn't Jean take the stand 803 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:14,720 at one of your trials? 804 00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:16,280 Was it San Diego? 805 00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:26,360 Wow. 806 00:47:28,760 --> 00:47:31,480 Jean testified unequivocally and strongly 807 00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:35,040 that during the time in question, 808 00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,760 she had been with Sam 809 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:39,560 and that there was no way 810 00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:42,280 he could've committed the crimes alleged. 811 00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:46,240 She was the consummate alibi witness, 812 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,320 the little under-oath church lady. 813 00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:06,560 She must have known. 814 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,080 You're not cleaning blood and shit and earrings 815 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:13,160 out of the back of a car and thinking, you know, 816 00:48:13,240 --> 00:48:16,320 "My boyfriend's just fucking around." 817 00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:20,160 I think she absolutely knew, 818 00:48:20,240 --> 00:48:21,800 and I think she enabled it. 819 00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:24,600 But as to Tonya, 820 00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:26,880 Sam said she was trying 821 00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:28,240 to cheat him out of some money, 822 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:31,240 and he refused to pay her, and so she attacked him, 823 00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:33,720 and he was simply fighting her off 824 00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:35,800 when the officer arrived on the scene. 825 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:40,880 Sam had a unique ability 826 00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:45,680 for finding the people who would not be credible, 827 00:48:45,760 --> 00:48:47,040 regardless of what they said. 828 00:48:47,120 --> 00:48:50,360 Even if they lived, who would believe them? 829 00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,720 Somehow, this man 830 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:57,560 was more credible 831 00:48:57,640 --> 00:48:59,440 than these victims? 832 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:04,240 I didn't hear from anyone 833 00:49:04,320 --> 00:49:06,000 after I testified. 834 00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:09,480 I had no idea that the jury didn't believe me. 835 00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,240 I had no idea that... 836 00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:16,000 there was a hung jury. 837 00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:27,920 Tonya couldn't be located 838 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:29,360 for the second trial. 839 00:49:30,360 --> 00:49:35,080 We were faced with a... 840 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,160 extremely weak case that was going to possibly end 841 00:49:38,240 --> 00:49:39,640 in an acquittal, 842 00:49:39,720 --> 00:49:41,120 so we accepted a plea 843 00:49:41,200 --> 00:49:43,280 to two felony counts, 844 00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:47,080 assault with intent to inflict great bodily injury. 845 00:49:47,160 --> 00:49:49,280 We're darn lucky we got to send this guy away 846 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,640 four years to prison for what he had done. 847 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:53,680 I don't even know if he served 848 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:55,400 every minute of those four years. 849 00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,480 That was the best we could get him, 850 00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,320 and that's what we gave him. 851 00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:04,400 He served two. 852 00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,840 This was the worst outcome of my career. 853 00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:14,080 They didn't do their job. 854 00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,120 Whether Tonya was around or not, 855 00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,720 they had enough evidence from what happened to me. 856 00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:23,280 The details I gave them, the report I gave them, 857 00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,080 the drawing I gave of him, 858 00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,920 and the fact he was caught in the act 859 00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:31,040 is unbelievable to me 860 00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:33,680 that they could not have made that trial work. 861 00:50:33,760 --> 00:50:35,440 Somebody fucked up, 862 00:50:35,520 --> 00:50:37,160 big-time. 863 00:50:50,880 --> 00:50:51,800 Hi. 864 00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:52,880 Hi. You must be Laurie. 865 00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:54,880 I'm Laurie. Please come in. 866 00:50:58,080 --> 00:51:01,320 Very different seating than 35 years ago. 867 00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:02,920 Yeah. 868 00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,840 So I've been curious a few times the... 869 00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:07,560 - Yeah, yeah. - case has come up, 870 00:51:07,640 --> 00:51:11,840 and, you know, we-we didn't see you for that second trial. 871 00:51:11,920 --> 00:51:13,840 - Yeah. - And... 872 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,320 and I don't know if they didn't-didn't do 873 00:51:15,400 --> 00:51:16,760 a good job locating you, or I didn't know 874 00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:18,680 if you'd just made yourself scarce or what. 875 00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:20,720 - What happened? - No one ever called me 876 00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:22,280 or followed up with me at all. 877 00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:24,040 - They didn't follow up? - Never. 878 00:51:24,120 --> 00:51:26,240 I never knew there was a second trial. 879 00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:28,240 I didn't know there was a hung jury 880 00:51:28,320 --> 00:51:29,760 in the first trial. 881 00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:33,560 I never got a call from anyone 882 00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:35,720 to follow up after I testified. 883 00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:37,040 We were put in a bad spot. 884 00:51:37,120 --> 00:51:39,160 We couldn't go forward, 885 00:51:39,240 --> 00:51:41,600 and we had to 886 00:51:41,680 --> 00:51:44,080 make a deal with this crook 887 00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:45,920 and, you know, consequently 888 00:51:46,000 --> 00:51:48,320 managed to send him to prison but not-not long enough. 889 00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:49,440 - Right. - Yeah. 890 00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:50,720 Because we're prostitutes, 891 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:52,800 we're women, it doesn't really matter. 892 00:51:52,880 --> 00:51:57,280 That's ultimately-- what came out of that is... 893 00:51:57,360 --> 00:51:58,560 "Who cares?" 894 00:51:58,640 --> 00:52:01,200 Well, I think they don't believe women sometimes 895 00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,280 when they have got a record for being a prostitute 896 00:52:04,360 --> 00:52:06,280 and then they-they- 897 00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:07,920 they deny it when it comes for a trial 898 00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,520 on this particular occasion. 899 00:52:09,600 --> 00:52:11,280 I didn't deny it. 900 00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:12,440 But you were doing prostitution. 901 00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:13,600 Am I correct? Okay. 902 00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:16,200 Five or six times, I was out on the streets, 903 00:52:16,280 --> 00:52:18,080 doing prostitution. 904 00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:19,320 I remember being in your office, 905 00:52:19,400 --> 00:52:21,680 and I fully admitted it; I was humiliated. 906 00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:24,680 I'm embarrassed of what I did. 907 00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,800 But it shouldn't change anything. 908 00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:29,440 I didn't deserve for some guy 909 00:52:29,520 --> 00:52:31,480 to try and murder me. 910 00:52:31,560 --> 00:52:33,840 There's no way he should've been able 911 00:52:33,920 --> 00:52:36,240 to plea out like this so easily 912 00:52:36,320 --> 00:52:38,920 with so much evidence. 913 00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:40,120 Now, you understand, 914 00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,120 without a witness, we didn't have a trial. 915 00:52:42,200 --> 00:52:43,160 I'm a witness. It happened to me. 916 00:52:43,240 --> 00:52:44,440 Right, but-- 917 00:52:44,520 --> 00:52:46,920 This is crazy. I didn't go anywhere. 918 00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:50,640 Just a fucking phone call. 919 00:52:50,720 --> 00:52:52,720 Can you think of any reason why you wouldn't have called? 920 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:54,640 Weren't you curious to know what happened? 921 00:52:54,720 --> 00:52:56,600 I-I would've called; I'd like to know what happened 922 00:52:56,680 --> 00:52:58,600 if I was in your shoes. 923 00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:01,200 You're gonna put this on me? 924 00:53:01,280 --> 00:53:03,720 -Did you feel-- -I cannot-- 925 00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,720 What a metaphor all this has become. 926 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:09,160 Being dumped in trash, never called, 927 00:53:09,240 --> 00:53:10,560 never contacted. 928 00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:12,040 If you cared so much, 929 00:53:12,120 --> 00:53:14,240 it-it should've come from you. 930 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:16,280 I'm sorry you think I didn't do 931 00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,440 the best could be done. 932 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:19,800 It didn't go well this time, 933 00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,960 and this is just a horrible, horrible case. 934 00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,640 Failed. They failed. 935 00:53:28,640 --> 00:53:29,920 They failed me. 936 00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:32,520 They failed every woman after me 937 00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:33,840 that was killed. 938 00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:35,880 I'm trying to point out the massive failure 939 00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:37,000 of the system. 940 00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:38,160 Nothing's gonna change 941 00:53:38,240 --> 00:53:40,360 if all we're doing is defending ourself 942 00:53:40,440 --> 00:53:41,800 and saying we did everything right. 943 00:53:41,880 --> 00:53:43,440 We did not. 944 00:53:43,520 --> 00:53:45,080 Women have died 945 00:53:45,160 --> 00:53:48,080 because everybody's got the same mindset. 946 00:53:48,160 --> 00:53:49,600 They're stuck. Their hands are tied. 947 00:53:49,680 --> 00:53:52,320 "I did my best." No, nobody fought. 948 00:53:52,400 --> 00:53:55,120 We just respond to the system and on to the next. 949 00:54:00,320 --> 00:54:01,640 So guess what. 950 00:54:01,720 --> 00:54:04,760 All the deaths after me are on them. 951 00:54:06,640 --> 00:54:09,200 Have fun sleeping at night with that, 952 00:54:09,280 --> 00:54:11,520 'cause you do not get to escape it. 953 00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:13,720 He went on a killing spree after he got out of prison 954 00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:15,720 for serving two and a half years, 955 00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:17,960 immediately after he got out. 956 00:54:20,480 --> 00:54:22,400 I want you to tell me 957 00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,800 about when you got out of prison in San Diego. 958 00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:27,040 You remember that? 959 00:54:54,840 --> 00:54:58,800 When I took on this serial killer story, 960 00:54:58,880 --> 00:55:00,920 I was like, "This can't be real." 961 00:55:03,840 --> 00:55:08,120 This man, who everyone knew was killing women, 962 00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:11,840 got off again and again and again. 963 00:55:11,920 --> 00:55:13,560 And I thought, "Oh, gosh. 964 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:15,920 "Like, I'm gonna get the answer. 965 00:55:16,000 --> 00:55:17,920 "I'm gonna get the answer 966 00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,320 "of why you feel you need to control women 967 00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,200 "and why you feel you need to own women 968 00:55:23,280 --> 00:55:25,440 "and, if you can't, why you feel 969 00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:28,560 you need to destroy women." 970 00:55:28,640 --> 00:55:31,200 It's like, "I'm gonna get it. I'm gonna get the answer."